BoxRec

What, by the way, would be correct by many opinions.

How would everything go in this case in the history of boxing? Would Ali retire right after? Or would there be the forth fight of him against Norton? And whom else Norton could face to defend the title? How would Kenny's career develop in this case?

Interesting question. I can't imagine Ali leaving it at that so a fourth fight would have been inevitable, which given that Ali was in decline and Norton close to his peak would have been another Norton win.

Then normal timelines are re-instated. With the title being tied up away from Don King, Young and Foreman fight in an eliminator, won by Young. Norton squeaks past Young, then in his third defence loses by a razor thin decision in a classic to Larry Holmes. That's my take anyway.

Yeah, it probably wouldn't much change for Norton. He would fight Young soon anyway. Ali would retire, I believe. Ali became way past it after Manila. He couldn't perfom convincing on the highest level anymore. His Young and Norton fights were arguable, as we know. I guess, after a loss on paper to the guy to whom he had lost before, he would be less motivated to continue. But he still would likely make a comeback. Maybe just earlier. That wouldn't change the outcome of his comeback anyway.

Ali not going to want to go out a loser. It either ends 2 ways:

1) Muhammad gets a rematch in early 77, ekes out a close UD, retired, and Norton edges Young for the belt, gets kayoed by Shavers early in 1978, and Earnie loses the belt to Larry Holmes in mid-1978.
2) Norton wins a close UD against Ali in early 77, Ali still retired, Norton beats Young in a nailbiter in mid 77, loses to Shavers in late 77, and Norton loses an eliminator to Holmes in early 78, and then Holmes beats Shavers in mid 78.
The X-factor is Leon Spinks. He gets another year to develop, and 1979, he is going to put his foot up somebody's ass. Might be Holmes, Tate, or even Norton or Shavers, but at the decade's end, has a good shot of ending with the belt.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑14 Apr 2020, 23:30 The X-factor is Leon Spinks.

I guess, without Ali being a champion Leon wouldn't appear in a title fight in the 70s, maybe even ever. He could be defeated when he stepped up, as he was losing to a top opposition almost all the time. Ali's team chose him to be Ali's opponent only because Ali was protected at the latest stage of his career. Everyone in his team knew, that he was close to being shot, that he was old and unjured, so they tried to continue his reign safe as much as possible.

DrDuke wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 04:51

Nile4000 wrote: ↑14 Apr 2020, 23:30 The X-factor is Leon Spinks.

I guess, without Ali being a champion Leon wouldn't appear in a title fight in the 70s, maybe even ever. He could be defeated when he stepped up, as he was losing to a top opposition almost all the time. Ali's team chose him to be Ali's opponent only because Ali was protected at the latest stage of his career. Everyone in his team knew, that he was close to being shot, that he was old and unjured, so they tried to continue his reign safe as much as possible.

That could have happened, but with that extra year to learn, if the hunger was there, Leon may have developed into a different animal altogether.

Interesting question. It would have to effect his all time ranking. I rank him the #1 HW, but one round scored differently in that fight would frankly effect Ali's ranking.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑14 Apr 2020, 23:30 The X-factor is Leon Spinks. He gets another year to develop, and 1979, he is going to put his foot up somebody's ass. Might be Holmes, Tate, or even Norton or Shavers, but at the decade's end, has a good shot of ending with the belt.

If prime Leon Spinks fought Holmes 100 times he would lose exactly 100 times and get knocked out about 95 times. Leon Spinks is vastly overrated. He hit the jackpot with old Ali.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 13:30 Interesting question. It would have to effect his all time ranking. I rank him the #1 HW, but one round scored differently in that fight would frankly effect Ali's ranking.

The only thing you'd need is honest judging. Norton won that fight going away.

hhaehre wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 13:52

Nile4000 wrote: ↑14 Apr 2020, 23:30 The X-factor is Leon Spinks. He gets another year to develop, and 1979, he is going to put his foot up somebody's ass. Might be Holmes, Tate, or even Norton or Shavers, but at the decade's end, has a good shot of ending with the belt.

If prime Leon Spinks fought Holmes 100 times he would lose exactly 100 times and get knocked out about 95 times. Leon Spinks is vastly overrated. He hit the jackpot with old Ali.

Leon's problem was what he put in his mouth and nose. Also he was brought along way too quickly.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 18:22

hhaehre wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 13:52
If prime Leon Spinks fought Holmes 100 times he would lose exactly 100 times and get knocked out about 95 times. Leon Spinks is vastly overrated. He hit the jackpot with old Ali.

Leon's problem was what he put in his mouth and nose. Also he was brought along way too quickly.

He was just a dumb guy. Whether he was pushed quickly or not he always strikes me as a guy that falls into the drink and the drugs once he gets money.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 18:24

Tony1244 wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 18:22

Leon's problem was what he put in his mouth and nose. Also he was brought along way too quickly.

He was just a dumb guy. Whether he was pushed quickly or not he always strikes me as a guy that falls into the drink and the drugs once he gets money.

The guy had almost no discipline. If they could have kept him on a funny farm away from all that, I think he would have had great potential. I read (of course I don't know if it's true) that he was drinking throughout the whole Olympics.

He obviously wasn't moved too quickly. They got what they could out of a time bomb. He beat Muhammad Ali for the belt. He would have never had that waiting.

hhaehre wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 13:52

Nile4000 wrote: ↑14 Apr 2020, 23:30 The X-factor is Leon Spinks. He gets another year to develop, and 1979, he is going to put his foot up somebody's ass. Might be Holmes, Tate, or even Norton or Shavers, but at the decade's end, has a good shot of ending with the belt.

If prime Leon Spinks fought Holmes 100 times he would lose exactly 100 times and get knocked out about 95 times. Leon Spinks is vastly overrated. He hit the jackpot with old Ali.

If Leon is focused and serious, at that time, Holmes was still kinda new, all Leon needed to do was apply constant pressure, Larry might make a mistake, and loses the belt. Slim chance, but it could have happened.

TBH I'm more interested if he got the decision vs Larry (and Larry still did big things) then he has wins over 2 atgs and may be seen in a totally different light than today

Hearns has no chance in 82 but spinks could beat Holmes. Leon was very focused and looked sharp when Larry smashed him.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 19:02 He obviously wasn't moved too quickly. They got what they could out of a time bomb. He beat Muhammad Ali for the belt. He would have never had that waiting.

True, considering his Belushi like party skills he was a ticking time bomb. Don't know if that's why he was rushed though. Could have just been for quicker money.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑16 Apr 2020, 14:33

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 19:02 He obviously wasn't moved too quickly. They got what they could out of a time bomb. He beat Muhammad Ali for the belt. He would have never had that waiting.

True, considering his Belushi like party skills he was a ticking time bomb. Don't know if that's why he was rushed though. Could have just been for quicker money.

It worked.

At the time I thought he was fighting guys like Righetti and LeDoux way too soon, but considering he was washed up at 25, yeah it did work.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑16 Apr 2020, 14:28

hhaehre wrote: ↑15 Apr 2020, 13:52
If prime Leon Spinks fought Holmes 100 times he would lose exactly 100 times and get knocked out about 95 times. Leon Spinks is vastly overrated. He hit the jackpot with old Ali.

If Leon is focused and serious, at that time, Holmes was still kinda new, all Leon needed to do was apply constant pressure, Larry might make a mistake, and loses the belt. Slim chance, but it could have happened.

Leon beating Holmes in 79 is inconceivable, he wouldn't beat Tate, Norton or Shavers either.

hhaehre wrote: ↑16 Apr 2020, 14:52

Nile4000 wrote: ↑16 Apr 2020, 14:28

If Leon is focused and serious, at that time, Holmes was still kinda new, all Leon needed to do was apply constant pressure, Larry might make a mistake, and loses the belt. Slim chance, but it could have happened.

Leon beating Holmes in 79 is inconceivable, he wouldn't beat Tate, Norton or Shavers either.

I agree it is inconceivable. Inconceivable because of Leon's lifestyle, but that's a big part of who Leon is.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑16 Apr 2020, 14:55

hhaehre wrote: ↑16 Apr 2020, 14:52
Leon beating Holmes in 79 is inconceivable, he wouldn't beat Tate, Norton or Shavers either.

I agree it is inconceivable. Inconceivable because of Leon's lifestyle, but that's a big part of who Leon is.

He was never good enough to beat Holmes, regardless of his lifestyle. Leon had a style well suited for 3 fast paced rounds of amateur boxing, but as a pro his reckless all out attacking style didn't really work against quality opposition. Outside of Ali, the best fighter he beat was Mercado. I just never saw anything special in Leon as a pro.

hhaehre wrote: ↑16 Apr 2020, 15:10

Tony1244 wrote: ↑16 Apr 2020, 14:55

I agree it is inconceivable. Inconceivable because of Leon's lifestyle, but that's a big part of who Leon is.

He was never good enough to beat Holmes, regardless of his lifestyle. Leon had a style well suited for 3 fast paced rounds of amateur boxing, but as a pro his reckless all out attacking style didn't really work against quality opposition. Outside of Ali, the best fighter he beat was Mercado. I just never saw anything special in Leon as a pro.

If the books and articles I've read on Leon are even half accurate, it was the partying that made him a poor pro. It was off the charts.

hhaehre wrote: ↑16 Apr 2020, 14:52

Nile4000 wrote: ↑16 Apr 2020, 14:28

If Leon is focused and serious, at that time, Holmes was still kinda new, all Leon needed to do was apply constant pressure, Larry might make a mistake, and loses the belt. Slim chance, but it could have happened.

Leon beating Holmes in 79 is inconceivable, he wouldn't beat Tate, Norton or Shavers either.

Lesser fighters have beaten Shavers. Norton was on the downside. And Tate, though good, didn't have the strongest punch. Things could happen.

Leon had been through some things when he fought Larry in 1981. And Emanuel himself said the real reason the Hearns fight was cancelled was due to the fact they knew they couldn't take Marvelous Marvin. .