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Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 25 Apr 2020, 17:28
by mjaco
Was reading the thread on whether Buster Douglas deserves to be in the hall of fame (and in my opinion he does not) but it got me to thinking about who does deserve to be in. As someone who used to vote for the IBHOF, I know better than most there are a lot of boxers in the hall who probably don't deserve to be there but I also understand the reasons why they are there.
But the question I'd like to put forth is, which one fighter who's eligible for election (I think you need to be retired for 5 years) is most deserving for induction? To me there's one, and only one, glaring omission from the hall, and that's Thai flyweight Pone Kingpetch. While his career record is only 28-7, he was the first fighter to win the world flyweight championship 3 times (all 3 were undisputed I believe). He also has a record of 3-1 against fighters who are currently in the hall of fame. Flyweights are historically always overlooked and if he'd fought in a higher weight class, I'd have to imagine he'd definitely be in by now.
If no one can come up with a fighter more deserving, I'd urge all readers to write their political representatives (or local boxing writer) and tell them to finally put poor PK in the hall.
If you need to refresh your memory on who is and isn't in the International Boxing Hall of Fame, you can find the full list of inductees here
http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/induct ... index.html
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 25 Apr 2020, 18:02
by Onetimeonly
Santos laciar is one off of the top of my head.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 25 Apr 2020, 18:58
by Scypion
Rodrigo Valdez? I would say Roy Jones Jr. but I don't think he has been retired long enough.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 25 Apr 2020, 19:39
by Seamus
Jimmy Leto beat 6 Hall of Famers and isn't in. In recent times, might not be eligible yet but Pongsaklek Wonjongkam should be automatic. His countryman Veeraphol Sahaprom should already be in, but the IBHOF isn't that keen on the lighter weights.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 25 Apr 2020, 19:57
by mjaco
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑25 Apr 2020, 18:02
Santos laciar is one off of the top of my head.
Wow, that's one I had to look up on Boxrec to refresh my memory. I don't think I've heard his name since he retired. But yeah, 79-10-11, 2-time WBA flyweight champ, a WBC superfly title, wins over a couple of good names - Hilario Zapata, who's in the hall, and Gilberto Roman.
I'd still tend to put Pone Kingpetch ahead of him because I give a little more weight to the undisputed titles, plus there weren't light flyweight or superflyweight titles back in his era. And the 3-1 record against hall of fame fighters is a big plus. But I can see Laciar.
The flyweights don't get any love.
Scypion wrote: ↑25 Apr 2020, 18:58
Rodrigo Valdez? I would say Roy Jones Jr. but I don't think he has been retired long enough.
Not really seeing Valdes. To me his title wasn't legitimate since Monzon was the true champion in that era. And the only name wins he really has are Bennie Briscoe and Vinnie Curto, who were good but not world beaters. Jones isn't eligible and if he keeps popping up to have fights every couple of years, he may never be.
Seamus wrote: ↑25 Apr 2020, 19:39
Jimmy Leto beat 6 Hall of Famers and isn't in. In recent times, might not be eligible yet but Pongsaklek Wonjongkam should be automatic. His countryman Veeraphol Sahaprom should already be in, but the IBHOF isn't that keen on the lighter weights.
Leto is an interesting one I honestly wasn't familiar with. But looks like he's around 8-4-2 vs. hall of famers if I'm counting right, which is impressive. I'd still probably favor Kingpetch over him but I wouldn't object too much to Leto's induction from what I can tell glancing at his record. But I don't think he can be voted in anymore. Would probably have to be inducted by the old-timers' committee.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 25 Apr 2020, 20:19
by Seamus
Quite a few old timers with good cases. Frankie Burns, Charley White, Lockport Jimmy Duffy, Willie Joyce, Bert Lytell. Even Paddy DeMarco, Del Flanagan and Young Peter Jackson are better choices than some guys who were inducted in recent years.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 25 Apr 2020, 20:27
by mjaco
Seamus wrote: ↑25 Apr 2020, 20:19
Quite a few old timers with good cases. Frankie Burns, Charley White, Lockport Jimmy Duffy, Willie Joyce, Bert Lytell. Even Paddy DeMarco, Del Flanagan and Young Peter Jackson are better choices than some guys who were inducted in recent years.
Without getting into it too much, there's definitely a bias toward heavier fighters and more recent fighters among the voters from the Boxing Writers Association. When I voted for this years ago as a young reporter, I took it seriously and went down to the library and spent hours combing through an old Ring record book (this was in the pre-Boxrec days). The glaring omission at the time that I came up with was Manuel Ortiz. At the next annual boxing writers meeting there was another writer who spoke up for Ortiz and I quickly seconded his suggestion and I think Ortiz ended up being voted in that year. But unfortunately, I don't think too many of the voters take it quite as seriously as I used to.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 25 Apr 2020, 20:29
by mjaco
I'm assuming the writers are still the ones who vote on the modern era inductees but I'm really not certain.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 26 Apr 2020, 01:54
by elmersalsa
Lew Feldman should be in.
Santos Laciar should be in.
ALSO, Gilberto Roman, Ernesto Marcel, Jose Luis Ramirez and Esteban De Jesus
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 26 Apr 2020, 02:09
by elmersalsa
WILFREDO VAZQUEZ
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 26 Apr 2020, 10:31
by chrisjs1985
Rafael Herrera (2-1 against Martinez, 1-1 with Chucho classic fights too, beat Olivares twice, classic fight and win over Borhorsor, two-time champ). Should be a lock IMO.
Lionel Rose, Jose Medel, Gilberto Roman, Jose Legra, Rodolfo Casinova, Chucho Castillo etc; should at least get strong consideration but I doubt they get a look.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 26 Apr 2020, 17:40
by Scypion
Rodrigo Valdez was also lineal middleweight champ after Monzon retired as well as WBC Middleweight Champion for awhile. Valdez probably would have been the dominant fighter during the 1970's middleweight division if all time great Monzon was not around. Valdez did go 15 rounds with Monzon twice and gave him a couple of tough fights. Rodrigo was a pretty tough guy himself having 73 fights and never being KO'd in the ring. Early in his career he was stopped due to some kind of injury after 6 full rounds. Don't know anything about the injury. Valdez did beat Bennie Briscoe 3 times including a KO, (Bennie;s only time KO'd, at least through 1980) Valdez could really hit and decked Monzon in their last bout. Rodrigo Valdez certainly deserves IBHOF induction more than some of the guys that are in there.
servesrserves
ws
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 27 Apr 2020, 14:11
by Jeff_lacy_ko
Ivan calderon
18 and 3 in title fights
9-3-1 against titleholders
Title holder in 2 divisions for 7 straight years
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 27 Apr 2020, 15:59
by mjaco
Scypion wrote: ↑26 Apr 2020, 17:40
Rodrigo Valdez was also lineal middleweight champ after Monzon retired as well as WBC Middleweight Champion for awhile. Valdez probably would have been the dominant fighter during the 1970's middleweight division if all time great Monzon was not around. Valdez did go 15 rounds with Monzon twice and gave him a couple of tough fights. Rodrigo was a pretty tough guy himself having 73 fights and never being KO'd in the ring. Early in his career he was stopped due to some kind of injury after 6 full rounds. Don't know anything about the injury. Valdez did beat Bennie Briscoe 3 times including a KO, (Bennie;s only time KO'd, at least through 1980) Valdez could really hit and decked Monzon in their last bout. Rodrigo Valdez certainly deserves IBHOF induction more than some of the guys that are in there.
servesrserves
ws
You're right, Valdes was undisputed champion briefly in that, after Monzon retired, he won an eliminator against Briscoe for the vacant belts. But he also did lose it immediately to Hugo Corro. As far as I can tell, he never won a fight against any boxer who ever held any real world championship throughout his whole career. Briscoe was really the only name of note he ever beat and while a pretty good fighter, no one's confusing Bad Bennie with Marvin Hagler.
Valdes was a good fighter but not a great one. So his admission to the IBHOF really comes down to your standards. As I pointed out in the thread on Buster Douglas's potential admission, you can look at this question in two different ways. If you go by the standards the IBHOF has already set through who is in there, then yes, Valdes probably deserves admission because he's as good as some of the people who have already been voted in. But if you want to reserve admission for truly great fighters, then I'd say no, he doesn't deserve to be voted in. The Boxrec hall of fame is much more exclusive - and to me more in line with what I'd like to see the IBHOF standards become - and I really couldn't see putting Valdes in that company.
In any case, the main point of this thread was which
one fighter is
most deserving of induction into the IBHOF and while there have been a couple of good names put forward whom I'd say might also be deserving of induction, I don't think anyone's come up with a more deserving candidate than Pone Kingpetch. He was a three-time undisputed flyweight champion in an era when the eight traditional weight classes were still the only weight classes anyone cared about. There were no strawweight, light flyweight or super flyweight classes back then so everyone below bantamweight was fighting in the one weight class. And he has a record of 3-1 against fighters who are in the hall of fame. If he'd done that in a heavier weight class, he'd certainly be in the hall. Even as a flyweight, if he'd been from the U.S. or UK he'd probably be in. It's just his bad luck he happens to be a flyweight from Thailand fighting more than 50 years ago so his career has been totally overlooked by the voters. It's almost enough to make me want to renew my BWAA membership to campaign for him. If nothing else, maybe this thread will catch the eye of a few current voters who'll give him some consideration during the next vote.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 27 Apr 2020, 20:20
by Scypion
Apparently, Valdez was almost as good as Monzon, who was arguably the greatest middleweight ever. I believe that Rodrigo would have given Hagler a tough fight. I believe that ring wear and tear caught up with Valdez, especially after going 15 rounds with Monzon twice and Briscoe recently., before Corro.
I hope that both Kingpetch and Valdez get voted into the IBHOF soon.
soe rece
ntlyu
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 27 Apr 2020, 20:39
by Onetimeonly
I think Rodrigo is worthy.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 27 Apr 2020, 20:42
by oogiebe
Scypion wrote: ↑27 Apr 2020, 20:20
Apparently, Valdez was almost as good as Monzon, who was arguably the greatest middleweight ever. I believe that Rodrigo would have given Hagler a tough fight. I believe that ring wear and tear caught up with Valdez, especially after going 15 rounds with Monzon twice and Briscoe recently., before Corro.
I hope that both Kingpetch and Valdez get voted into the IBHOF soon.
soe rece
ntlyu
Valdez was a great fighter, but he fought Monzon at Carlos' twilight.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 27 Apr 2020, 20:54
by Scypion
oogiebe wrote: ↑27 Apr 2020, 20:42
Scypion wrote: ↑27 Apr 2020, 20:20
Apparently, Valdez was almost as good as Monzon, who was arguably the greatest middleweight ever. I believe that Rodrigo would have given Hagler a tough fight. I believe that ring wear and tear caught up with Valdez, especially after going 15 rounds with Monzon twice and Briscoe recently., before Corro.
I hope that both Kingpetch and Valdez get voted into the IBHOF soon.
soe rece
ntlyu
Valdez was a great fighter, but he fought Monzon at Carlos' twilight.
True, but Monzon did not seem too anxious to fight Valdez 2 or 3 years earlier.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 27 Apr 2020, 21:07
by BoxBuzz
If it's the hall of skill, Valdez is a shoo in. He took Monzon to his limit. However....it's not....it's the hall of fame. Still, I'd be pro Rodrigo......he's a class fighter, who easily would be in if he had fought outside of the Monzon/Hagler era.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 27 Apr 2020, 21:30
by oogiebe
Scypion wrote: ↑27 Apr 2020, 20:54
oogiebe wrote: ↑27 Apr 2020, 20:42
Valdez was a great fighter, but he fought Monzon at Carlos' twilight.
True, but Monzon did not seem too anxious to fight Valdez 2 or 3 years earlier.
Monzon fought him two straight fights at the end of his career and at Valdez's prime. Seems to me that he'd have been better off fighting him earlier than that.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 27 Apr 2020, 21:42
by mjaco
I'm curious. Do most people in favor of Valdes believe he belongs because he compares favorably to many of the people already in the hall? Or do you believe he belongs in an absolute sense in any hall of fame, such as the Boxrec hall, which only has about half the number of inductees that the IBHOF has? If it's the former, as I said, I don't completely disagree. But as for the latter, I don't see placing him in that rarefied company given that he's 0-2 vs hall of famers and 0-4 vs world champions.
But I will say I'm too young to remember most of his career so my opinions come from looking at the records and watching film of him after the fact. And I'll be the first to admit when you weren't around to witness a fighter's entire career first hand, as it's happening, you can certainly underestimate (or overestimate) how good they were.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 27 Apr 2020, 21:49
by Onetimeonly
I certainly never put guys in because they're more deserving than a previous mistake. With vitali in there it would be like the running of the bulls.
Admittedly, Rodrigo doesn't have a ton of depth. He has 3 wins over briscoe and 2 very good losses to a legend that are better than most fighters best win.
He's nortonish, maybe a tier below. Definitely not a slam dunk though I imagine he has other wins to list that I'm forgetting.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 28 Apr 2020, 00:47
by Scypion
I was just looking at the Ring Record Book and I noticed that Rodrigo Valdez was ranked number 6 in 1969 in the welterweight division even though he had most of his fights in Columbia up to then (Valdez turned 23 in December of 1969). Ring ranked in Valdez 9th in the Junior Welterweight division in 1968. Ring ranked him 5th in the middleweight division in 1971. He did not fight anybody well known to us up to that time. He must have impressed somebody.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 28 Apr 2020, 00:49
by gilgamesh
Scypion wrote: ↑28 Apr 2020, 00:47
I was just looking at the Ring Record Book and I noticed that Rodrigo Valdez was ranked number 6 in 1969 in the welterweight division even though he had most of his fights in Columbia up to then (Valdez turned 23 in December of 1969). Ring ranked in Valdez 9th in the Junior Welterweight division in 1968. Ring ranked him 5th in the middleweight division in 1971. He did not fight anybody well known to us up to that time. He must have impressed somebody.
He's the only guy that ever stopped Bennie Briscoe, and that's saying something because Briscoe fought f*cking everybody that was anybody for 2 decades.
Re: Which One Fighter Most Deserves to Be Inducted Into the IBHOF?
Posted: 28 Apr 2020, 01:42
by Onetimeonly
Scypion wrote: ↑28 Apr 2020, 00:47
I was just looking at the Ring Record Book and I noticed that Rodrigo Valdez was ranked number 6 in 1969 in the welterweight division even though he had most of his fights in Columbia up to then (Valdez turned 23 in December of 1969). Ring ranked in Valdez 9th in the Junior Welterweight division in 1968. Ring ranked him 5th in the middleweight division in 1971. He did not fight anybody well known to us up to that time. He must have impressed somebody.
I ran across that years ago doing some ratings for title bout sim.