BoxRec

I always enjoy the fantasy matchups, and have been reading debates here about modern heavies being too big and strong for the older greats like Frazier, Marciano, etc.

Is it just me, or do these pro-gargantuan types tend to leave punching power out of the equation too often? I've heard the phrase "too big and strong" repeated over and over like a mantra, but not "they hit too hard".

Is Wilder's right hand harder than Marciano's? They look equally as hard to me. If anyone reading this is convinced he does, then pick any right hand of his on film and compare it to the first Walcott KO and show me what I'm missing.

I mean I can find video of flyweights brutally KOing each other, how do you tell just based on individual KOs like Walcott?

Ghost Town Ghost wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020, 13:29 I always enjoy the fantasy matchups, and have been reading debates here about modern heavies being too big and strong for the older greats like Frazier, Marciano, etc.

Is it just me, or do these pro-gargantuan types tend to leave punching power out of the equation too often? I've heard the phrase "too big and strong" repeated over and over like a mantra, but not "they hit too hard".

Is Wilder's right hand harder than Marciano's? They look equally as hard to me. If anyone reading this is convinced he does, then pick any right hand of his on film and compare it to the first Walcott KO and show me what I'm missing.

I do believe Wilder probably has more one punch power than Marciano, but that's because his power is basically literally all he has. It's the one and only thing that's gotten him where he's gotten.

Marciano had other good qualities, and yes a thudding right hand to go along with it didn't hurt.

I don't think Tyson Fury punches any harder than Marciano, and he's nearly 80 pounds bigger.

To me the noticeable thing with the bigger guys as opposed to the Ali's and the Joe Louis' of the world, is a lack of technique, and combination punching. Seems like there's a lot more one shot at a time, and leaning on guys with your size, and just a different approach to the game from these bigger guys.

The smaller guys at Heavyweight, and the old timers (at least the best of 'em) often had much more polished technique and often better technique will produce better power.

So basically I think Wilder probably punches harder than Marciano, but that alone don't make him a better fighter. There's lots to study and take in from the legends of the past.

To me, how often a punch lands and the degree to which the opponent is able to see the punch coming are of far more importance. I understand the obsession with power to a degree, but there is very little discussion of punching accuracy and punching in combination, which have to be more important when it comes, not just to winning, but to actually hurting your opponent.

Anyway, as others have said, it's not enough to be bigger, the technique needs to be of a similar level. I wonder to what degree fist size is of importance? I seem to recall people talking about Foreman having fists that were like bowling balls and it made the impact of the punches so significant. Heavy handed??

This an easy one to answer though, all we need is the Drago Machine from Rocky IV and a time machine...

I don't know physics, but if you take 2 guys the same weight and same everything else, and send their power through a big fist and a smaller first, wouldn't the power in the smaller fist be more concentrated

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020, 13:59 I don't know physics, but if you take 2 guys the same weight and same everything else, and send their power through a big fist and a smaller first, wouldn't the power in the smaller fist be more concentrated

It'd be nice to think so seeing as how I have small fists, but I think there's something to the large "Heavy hands" thing as it relates to punching power.

By that measure shouldn't bigger gloves be more damaging? Not sure it's anything more than urban legend tbh

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020, 14:03 By that measure shouldn't bigger gloves be more damaging? Not sure it's anything more than urban legend tbh

Well go out and get punched by a small fisted guy and a big fisted guy of equal size and weight. It's the only way to know

I'm just kidding of course, but I'm actually envisioning somebody conducting this study with an almost 3 Stooges like sense of comedic ridiculousness.

*Walk up to a guy in a bar "Let me take a look at your hands sir"

*He has small hands

"You look like you punch like a lily"

You can be the leading researcher and I'll just stand by writing down the results

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020, 14:08 You can be the leading researcher and I'll just stand by writing down the results

Surely Charlie Zelenoff has some results in this field by now

Just a jackoff going around getting hit by people.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020, 13:43 I mean I can find video of flyweights brutally KOing each other, how do you tell just based on individual KOs like Walcott?

Right, we can't tell really, but I can just look at it and talk about it, y'know? I am not proving anything one way or another, but based on watching, these guys are SO MUCH SMALLER (as their detractors keep pointing out), but seem to get equal results with their power.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020, 13:47 To me the noticeable thing with the bigger guys as opposed to the Ali's and the Joe Louis' of the world, is a lack of technique, and combination punching. Seems like there's a lot more one shot at a time, and leaning on guys with your size, and just a different approach to the game from these bigger guys.

Yep, the higher skill level/pace etc etc is very obvious to me and again, people that WATCH a lot of boxing will tend to see these things and be able to debate for/against it. It seems an indicator to me, as lots of the pro-size guys focus on size, weight, numbers, that kinda stuff.

BTW I am not one of those that favors a visual record to form an opinion - I think Greb is the greatest of all time.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020, 13:59 I don't know physics, but if you take 2 guys the same weight and same everything else, and send their power through a big fist and a smaller first, wouldn't the power in the smaller fist be more concentrated

No, because the gloves dissipate the force, and anyway, what causes knockouts is a lot more complicated than PSI of force.

Fist size not matter then if glove cancels it out?

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020, 14:42 Fist size not matter then if glove cancels it out?

I guess he’s saying that the glove cancels any potential gain in force for a smaller fist, by dissipating it across a wider area, whereas a larger fist = a heavier fist and that extra force created by extra weight won’t be dissipated by the glove- a heavier hand inside a glove still has extra force, makes the head it hits shake more, compared to a lighter one because ‘weight matters’ (lol). But of course I’m neither a physicist nor jamesmcdonnell so that’s just why I inferred from him

Ghost Town Ghost wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020, 13:29 I always enjoy the fantasy matchups, and have been reading debates here about modern heavies being too big and strong for the older greats like Frazier, Marciano, etc.

Is it just me, or do these pro-gargantuan types tend to leave punching power out of the equation too often? I've heard the phrase "too big and strong" repeated over and over like a mantra, but not "they hit too hard".

Is Wilder's right hand harder than Marciano's? They look equally as hard to me. If anyone reading this is convinced he does, then pick any right hand of his on film and compare it to the first Walcott KO and show me what I'm missing.

Ghost Town Ghost wrote: ↑10 Jun 2020, 13:29 I always enjoy the fantasy matchups, and have been reading debates here about modern heavies being too big and strong for the older greats like Frazier, Marciano, etc.

Is it just me, or do these pro-gargantuan types tend to leave punching power out of the equation too often? I've heard the phrase "too big and strong" repeated over and over like a mantra, but not "they hit too hard".

Is Wilder's right hand harder than Marciano's? They look equally as hard to me. If anyone reading this is convinced he does, then pick any right hand of his on film and compare it to the first Walcott KO and show me what I'm missing.

You're missing nothing, at least not in my opinion.

Marciano was considerably smaller and lighter than Wilder but did anyone ever throw a better timed/leveraged right hand?

Force equals mass x acceleration, and in boxing there are many differing techniques. Whilst Marciano may not have had the greatest power (mass), he could still use what he had and time (acceleration) his Suzie Q right hand to strike on the perfect spot better than anyone.

But let's not forget that Marciano usually relentlessly wore down his opponents round by round to eventually set them up for the finish. He dropped (almost killed) Walcott in the 13th after being behind on all three cards, proving he could carry his power late.

Of course all the power in the world is of little use if you can't land it. As Terry Lawless used to say about Frank Bruno, IF he could land properly his opponents could have been launched out of the ring, but landing it was always the problem, especially against those "cagey customers" as Frank used to call them.

You could argue a similar case against the explosive UFC fighter Francis Ngannu if he were to ever set foot in a boxing ring. Shavers had a terrifying right hand but everyone knew it and did their best to avoid it. If Ernie had been a little more skilled...boxing history might have been quite different.

There's probably dozens of truly huge hitting heavyweights out there today as many a heavy bag might testify. But can they land regularly on a moving target as Marciano did?

The real skill is always setting up your opponents for the kill and then landing it, especially against more skilled and experienced opposition. These guys don't tend to leave their chins hanging out for your target practice. Emmanuel Steward made damn sure that both Lewis and Klitschko never repeated their earlier bad habits.

Mike Tyson v Larry Holmes was one memorable example of setting up an opponent to repeat a recurring bad habit. Apparently Tyson and Rooney had spotted a small weakness in Holmes' defensive technique and then worked on exploiting it in training.

When the chance came Tyson was waiting...and as quick as a flash, Boom!
Down went Larry.

There's a good article by Mike Silver about the time honoured question about power here.

Earnie Shavers: Monster Puncher—or Monster Myth?

https://www.boxingoverbroadway.com/mons ... ster-myth/

I've heard George Foreman say that some fighters generate power from their fists (DelaHoya, among others). I've always taken this to mean the strength in the hand itself, the tightness of the fist on impact, but maybe he was talking about the size of the fist?

Force=ma

Obviously that doesnt take into account accuracy but judging from the eye test wilder wilder gets good torque and speed and we know his mass is larger than a guy like Dempsey or Louis

Nice link ty!

Calculating the power of the punch is really complicated. Most of the power is not coming from the hand hitting the target but rather the boxer putting hes weight behind the punch. It is complex kinetic chain transferring the power.

I think that the power has increased but mostly because of the changes in training. Boxers do now more explosive power with weight training. Partly this has changed also due to decreasing the number of rounds to 12. Stamina is less important than in the earlier times. This allows boxers to have more fast twitch muscles.

What I think is more clear to see is the increase in punch resistance as the weight goes up. Guys like Valuev, Miller and Ruiz seem to be able to take hell of a beating without going down.

There are of course lighter guys that have great chins too.

I personally don’t like performing direct comparisons between fighters from different eras, because you’re not actually comparing apples to apples, coupled with the fact that nostalgia and myths often compel people to believe in things that aren’t reflected by reality (i.e. neither their resume nor the proverbial eyeball test).

For instance: Many believed that Rocky Marciano possessed “freakish” punching power, which he may have done during his own era, but he was only the same size as a modern-day light heavyweight. He was almost 100lbs lighter and a foot shorter than Tyson Fury.

So it wouldn’t make any sense for anyone to compare Marciano’s punching power to a modern-day heavyweight, because he often entered the ring lighter than the likes of Isaac Chilemba, Eleider Alvarez, Sergey Kovalev, Tony Bellew, Chad Dawson, Glen Johnson etc. did when they all competed at light heavyweight.

The same rule applies to other heavyweights as well, because physical prime versions of the likes of George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson etc. typically faced undersized cruiserweights (i.e. opposition weighing only slightly above 200lbs or more frequently well under it).

I’ll give you another example:

Sonny Liston has a reputation for being a “devastating” puncher, but his resume and eyeball test fails to reflect this (i.e. at his prime in 1963, he’d gone the distance 11 times in 36 bouts, losing one of them, and the men he faced typically weighed only 196lbs).

If Sonny was competing today, he'd be facing men 50lbs heavier, much taller and with much better dietary & training methods than the sort of guys he faced roughly sixty years ago.

So it’s unfair to compare eras.

Laughable to suggest modern training methods are better.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 04:42 Laughable to suggest modern training methods are better.

Laughable to suggest that they are not.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 04:15 I personally don’t like performing direct comparisons between fighters from different eras, because you’re not actually comparing apples to apples, coupled with the fact that nostalgia and myths often compel people to believe in things that aren’t reflected by reality (i.e. neither their resume nor the proverbial eyeball test).

For instance: Many believed that Rocky Marciano possessed “freakish” punching power, which he may have done during his own era, but he was only the same size as a modern-day light heavyweight. He was almost 100lbs lighter and a foot shorter than Tyson Fury.

So it wouldn’t make any sense for anyone to compare Marciano’s punching power to a modern-day heavyweight, because he often entered the ring lighter than the likes of Isaac Chilemba, Eleider Alvarez, Sergey Kovalev, Tony Bellew, Chad Dawson, Glen Johnson etc. did when they all competed at light heavyweight.

The same rule applies to other heavyweights as well, because physical prime versions of the likes of George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson etc. typically faced undersized cruiserweights (i.e. opposition weighing only slightly above 200lbs or more frequently well under it).

I’ll give you another example:

Sonny Liston has a reputation for being a “devastating” puncher, but his resume and eyeball test fails to reflect this (i.e. at his prime in 1963, he’d gone the distance 11 times in 36 bouts, losing one of them, and the men he faced typically weighed only 196lbs).

If Sonny was competing today, he'd be facing men 50lbs heavier, much taller and with much better dietary & training methods than the sort of guys he faced roughly sixty years ago.

So it’s unfair to compare eras.

Not this crap again...
So a 205lb Ernie Shavers would not have the power to stop these boys today?
Rocky Marciano hit hard enough to put anyone to sleep no matter the size..a chin is a chin no matter the weight

Duran1970 wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 09:32

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 04:15 I personally don’t like performing direct comparisons between fighters from different eras, because you’re not actually comparing apples to apples, coupled with the fact that nostalgia and myths often compel people to believe in things that aren’t reflected by reality (i.e. neither their resume nor the proverbial eyeball test).

For instance: Many believed that Rocky Marciano possessed “freakish” punching power, which he may have done during his own era, but he was only the same size as a modern-day light heavyweight. He was almost 100lbs lighter and a foot shorter than Tyson Fury.

So it wouldn’t make any sense for anyone to compare Marciano’s punching power to a modern-day heavyweight, because he often entered the ring lighter than the likes of Isaac Chilemba, Eleider Alvarez, Sergey Kovalev, Tony Bellew, Chad Dawson, Glen Johnson etc. did when they all competed at light heavyweight.

The same rule applies to other heavyweights as well, because physical prime versions of the likes of George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson etc. typically faced undersized cruiserweights (i.e. opposition weighing only slightly above 200lbs or more frequently well under it).

I’ll give you another example:

Sonny Liston has a reputation for being a “devastating” puncher, but his resume and eyeball test fails to reflect this (i.e. at his prime in 1963, he’d gone the distance 11 times in 36 bouts, losing one of them, and the men he faced typically weighed only 196lbs).

If Sonny was competing today, he'd be facing men 50lbs heavier, much taller and with much better dietary & training methods than the sort of guys he faced roughly sixty years ago.

So it’s unfair to compare eras.

Not this crap again...
So a 205lb Ernie Shavers would not have the power to stop these boys today?
Rocky Marciano hit hard enough to put anyone to sleep no matter the size..a chin is a chin no matter the weight

If what I’ve written really is "crap", pick one of the paragraphs and critique it. Explain the reason why you disagree?

I’ll tell you what, I'll even help you... let’s discuss what I wrote about Rocky Marciano, shall we? And then we'll move onto the other fighters I mentioned...

For instance: Many believed that Rocky Marciano possessed “freakish” punching power, which he may have done during his own era, but he was only the same size as a modern-day light heavyweight. He was almost 100lbs lighter and a foot shorter than Tyson Fury.

So it wouldn’t make any sense for anyone to compare Marciano’s punching power to a modern-day heavyweight, because he often entered the ring lighter than the likes of Isaac Chilemba, Eleider Alvarez, Sergey Kovalev, Tony Bellew, Chad Dawson, Glen Johnson etc. did when they all competed at light heavyweight.