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"'It's just crazy how these guys are experts': Floyd Mayweather lashes out after being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in list of best welterweights"

• Floyd Mayweather's friend sent him a list of all-time great welterweights
• Retired American took issue with being ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard
• He said: 'How can you have a guy No 1 when his first loss was to a lightweight'

Floyd Mayweather has lashed out after finding himself ranked behind Sugar Ray Leonard in a list of all-time great welterweights.

The American retired undefeated at 50-0 and took umbrage after he was overlooked for top spot in the rankings passed onto him by a friend.

'It was crazy, someone sent me something about 'The Best Welterweights',' he told spam.

'They had Sugar Ray Leonard No 1. Like I said before, he was the guy that paved the way for myself.

'But how can you have a guy ranked No 1 when his first loss was to a lightweight, Roberto Duran?

'And then they also talked about me facing [Juan Manuel] Marquez, which was at catchweight of 144lbs.

'But this same guy, Marquez, knocked out their No 3 ranked welterweight - because they had Pacquiao No 3. He got knocked out by Juan Manuel Marquez.'

'They were trying to say that basically he [Marquez] was too small for me. But he wasn't too small for Pacquiao.'

Mayweather, who hung up his gloves after beating Conor McGregor back in 2017 in the most lucrative boxing match of all time, continued his tirade, although he did not specify where the list came from.

He added: 'It's crazy how all these ratings go nowadays. Of course, fighters are always gonna say, 'I would've done this, I should be ranked here.'

'But a lot of these so-called boxing experts, it's just crazy how these guys are experts.

'If you're an expert, you've gotta really do your homework before you speak on certain things about boxing.'

Thoughts?

Sugar Ray Robinson should be ahead of both so that’s that one settled! Followed by Leanord with Mayweather at third.

Who made the list and what was the full thing

Within a 21-month timeframe, Sugar Ray Leonard had engaged in seven world title fights (capturing multiple titles), became a two-weight world champion, unified two belts and also became a two-time world titleholder at 147lbs, whilst defeating prime versions of Wilfred Benitez (undefeated), Ayub Kalule (undefeated), Tommy Hearns (undefeated) and also faced Roberto Duran twice (with the Panamanian having only ever lost once 8½ years prior).

To put this achievement into context:

• Roberto Duran = Hall-of-Famer, four-weight world champion, engaged in twenty-one world title fights, twenty-four of his bouts were against former/current world champions, resulting in victories over the likes of Esteban De Jesus (twice), Carlos Palomino, Ray Leonard, Pipino Cuevas, Davey Moore and Iran Barkley.

• Thomas Hearns = Hall-of-Famer, five-weight world champion, engaged in twenty world title fights and nineteen of his bouts were against former/current world champions, resulting in victories over the likes of Pipino Cuevas, Wilfred Benitez and Roberto Duran.

• Wilfred Benitez = Hall-of-Famer, three-weight world champion, youngest world champion in history, engaged in ten world title fights and eleven of his bouts were against former/current world champions, which resulted in victories over the likes of Roberto Duran and Carlos Palomino.

• Ayub Kalule = A former WBA junior middleweight champion, engaged in seven world title fights and nine of his bouts were against former/current world champions, beating the likes of Sumbu Kalambay. Kalule was only ever beaten by truly talented fighters, such as Sugar Ray Leonard, Davey Moore, Mike McCallum and Herol Graham.

The seven world championship bouts that Leonard had engaged in over that 21-moth timeframe, resulted in him capturing the following titles:

• WBC world welterweight champion (twice)
• WBA world welterweight champion
• Lineal welterweight champion
• The RING welterweight champion
• WBA super-welterweight champion
• Lineal super-welterweight champion

So basically four out of Sugar Ray Leonard's seven bouts during that 21-month period were against three Hall-of-Famers that were in their physical primes and he also managed to beat them all.

I cannot think of any other fighter that achieved so much over such a short 21-month timeframe, can you?

I can see a case for both to be honest.

Having watched a lot of classic fights in lockdown I really do think Floyd would have beaten Ray Leonard - whilst Ray's stand out wins are probably better (although I do think Floyd does get some harsh criticism on his opponents), I think Ray also missed out on some key fights (he basically retired at 27 - although fought very sporadically until he was 40). I think the lack of Aaron Pryor or Donald Curry (especially Curry IMO) does hurt Ray's legacy a fraction also.

However and I know this might not be the best way of looking at it - but I think the tail end of Ray's career did hurt him a bit. He ultimately seemed to struggle to adapt to age and the slowing reflexes.... which is why I have Floyd so high in ranking. I think Ray being floored in 5 of his last 7 fights wasn't good for his legacy (despite his, still for me signature and career best win being in one of those fights he wasn't floored). At the same period in career Floyd was beating up a future hall of famer in probably his signature win.

Floyd for me is the number 1 fighter who was active in my lifetime - he just found a way not to just to win, but to never really look that close to losing. The only time I thought he was truly staring defeat in the face was against DLH.

But Leonard of 1981 vs Floyd of around the time he fought Gatti - ohh tough one to call. But Leonard's prime was sadly very brief in the grand scheme of things.

That was a fan poll, if it's the list I'm thinking of. Leonard was second behind Robinson. Pacquiao was third. Hell, the fans even ranked Chavez sixth or seventh, despite the fact that he wasn't a Welterweight. Not sure why Floyd is getting so bent out of shape and referring to the voters as "so-called experts".

stujones wrote: ↑01 Jul 2020, 07:20I think Ray also missed out on some key fights (he basically retired at 27 - although fought very sporadically until he was 40). I think the lack of Aaron Pryor or Donald Curry (especially Curry IMO) does hurt Ray's legacy a fraction also.

Pryor avoided a fight against Leonard in the amateurs by dropping down a weight division in order to improve his chances of qualifying for the Olympics.

Leonard’s team also submitted an offer to Pryor’s handers when both men were pros, which was accepted (the fight was scheduled for Autumn 1982, with 'The Hawk' being paid $750K for the bout), but the fight was called off after Ray injured his eye and briefly retired.

Sugar Ray can't be blamed for that bout failing to happen.

In terms of the Donald Curry situation, I doubt they would have ever fought.

Leonard announced his retirement on the 10th November 1982, due to suffering from a detached retina in his left eye that was showing no signs of healing (he could see but the likelihood was that the injury would return if he resumed his career), with Donald Curry merely a contender at this point in time.

Sugar Ray announced his retirement from the sport standing in a ring at the Baltimore Civic Center, with Marvin Hagler sat ringside, stating that “'I will not come back, and that's it… A fight with this great man, with this great champion, would be one of the greatest fights in history. Unfortunately, it'll never happen.”

So I actually feel that if Sugar Ray hadn’t retired in 1982, he would have had far bigger fish to fry than Curry, coupled with Donald's prime being very brief indeed.

And let’s not forget that in 1987, Sugar Ray Leonard made a successful comeback at middleweight, beating Marvellous Marvin Hagler, with Donald Curry suffering his second career loss (within a ten-months period) 103 days later at the hands of Mike McCallum at 154lbs.

It seems likely that Donald Curry was never really on Sugar Ray’s radar.

Around the time of Leonard's comeback against Howard - both Curry and Pryor were very much on the radar - both were discussed in the HBO boradcast and they interviewed Pryor before and after the fight.

Lets not forget that Leonard re-retired not due to medical reasons between 1984 and 1986 (he announced his return in 1986).

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑01 Jul 2020, 07:41

stujones wrote: ↑01 Jul 2020, 07:20I think Ray also missed out on some key fights (he basically retired at 27 - although fought very sporadically until he was 40). I think the lack of Aaron Pryor or Donald Curry (especially Curry IMO) does hurt Ray's legacy a fraction also.

Pryor avoided a fight against Leonard in the amateurs by dropping down a weight division in order to improve his chances of qualifying for the Olympics.

Leonard’s team also submitted an offer to Pryor’s handers when both men were pros, which was accepted (the fight was scheduled for Autumn 1982, with 'The Hawk' being paid $750K for the bout), but the fight was called off after Ray injured his eye and briefly retired.

Sugar Ray can't be blamed for that bout failing to happen.

In terms of the Donald Curry situation, I doubt they would have ever fought.

Leonard announced his retirement on the 10th November 1982, due to suffering from a detached retina in his left eye that was showing no signs of healing (he could see but the likelihood was that the injury would return if he resumed his career), with Donald Curry merely a contender at this point in time.

Sugar Ray announced his retirement from the sport standing in a ring at the Baltimore Civic Center, with Marvin Hagler sat ringside, stating that “'I will not come back, and that's it… A fight with this great man, with this great champion, would be one of the greatest fights in history. Unfortunately, it'll never happen.”

So I actually feel that if Sugar Ray hadn’t retired in 1982, he would have had far bigger fish to fry than Curry, coupled with Donald's prime being very brief indeed.

And let’s not forget that in 1987, Sugar Ray Leonard made a successful comeback at middleweight, beating Marvellous Marvin Hagler, with Donald Curry suffering his second career loss (within a ten-months period) 103 days later at the hands of Mike McCallum at 154lbs.

It seems likely that Donald Curry was never really on Sugar Ray’s radar.

Leonard moved up in amateur to get away from Aaron Pryor..

Duran1970 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2020, 08:47

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑01 Jul 2020, 07:41
Pryor avoided a fight against Leonard in the amateurs by dropping down a weight division in order to improve his chances of qualifying for the Olympics.

Leonard’s team also submitted an offer to Pryor’s handers when both men were pros, which was accepted (the fight was scheduled for Autumn 1982, with 'The Hawk' being paid $750K for the bout), but the fight was called off after Ray injured his eye and briefly retired.

Sugar Ray can't be blamed for that bout failing to happen.

In terms of the Donald Curry situation, I doubt they would have ever fought.

Leonard announced his retirement on the 10th November 1982, due to suffering from a detached retina in his left eye that was showing no signs of healing (he could see but the likelihood was that the injury would return if he resumed his career), with Donald Curry merely a contender at this point in time.

Sugar Ray announced his retirement from the sport standing in a ring at the Baltimore Civic Center, with Marvin Hagler sat ringside, stating that “'I will not come back, and that's it… A fight with this great man, with this great champion, would be one of the greatest fights in history. Unfortunately, it'll never happen.”

So I actually feel that if Sugar Ray hadn’t retired in 1982, he would have had far bigger fish to fry than Curry, coupled with Donald's prime being very brief indeed.

And let’s not forget that in 1987, Sugar Ray Leonard made a successful comeback at middleweight, beating Marvellous Marvin Hagler, with Donald Curry suffering his second career loss (within a ten-months period) 103 days later at the hands of Mike McCallum at 154lbs.

It seems likely that Donald Curry was never really on Sugar Ray’s radar.

Leonard moved up in amateur to get away from Aaron Pryor..

Sugar Ray Leonard won a gold medal at the 1976 Olympic games competing as a light welterweight, a division he’d been campaigning in since 1973:

• 1973 National AAU Light Welterweight Championship Finalist
• 1974 National Golden Gloves Light Welterweight Champion
• 1974 National AAU Light Welterweight Champion
• 1974 North American Championships Light Welterweight Champion
• 1975 National AAU Light Welterweight Champion
• 1975 North American Championships Light Welterweight Champion
• 1975 Pan American Games Light Welterweight Champion
• 1976 U.S. Olympic Trials Light Welterweight Champion
• 1976 U.S. Olympic Box-Offs Champion
• 1976 Olympics Light Welterweight Gold Medallist

I can also provide an article endorsing my claim about the Olympic trials.

"Aaron Pryor-Sugar Ray Leonard It should of happened twice"

Aaron Pryor was a natural light welterweight as was of course Ray Leonard and both were competing for a time to get on the all-star Olympic squad of 1976 in that division. It should have happened in the amateurs, but Pryor was persuaded to drop down to lightweight to try to get an Olympic spot. It was something he regretted afterwards he felt he had Leonard’s number, but Leonard was the number one 140lb fighter and even then the golden hope of the Olympic team. The talent at lightweight such that Pryor beat Tommy Hearns then lost out to the eventual gold medal winner Howard Davies Jr. It was a close decision. Davies Jr went on to win the Val Barker trophy as the best amateur at the games. Pryor on the outside looking in wasted no time in turning pro.

I can also provide an archived newspaper article from 1982, containing an interview transcript of Aaron Pryor's admission at being left disappointed about Sugar Ray Leonard’s retirement, since it resulted in him missing out on a $750K payday.

Let's also not forget that Pryor at one time WAS offered the Leonard bout and he turned it down.

Legendary nights: Pryor / Arguello
Said ray moved up to get away from Aaron Pryor.
Before those dates you mentioned they were both at one time lightweights..so at no point did Pryor move down

Looking back at FMJ's resume I could see why he is having this argue. He fought very good fighters in multiple divisions.

Castillo, Gatti, Baldomir, ODLH, Hatton, Marquez, Mosley, Cotto, Alvarez , Maidana and Pacquiao.

Duran1970 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2020, 10:23 Legendary nights: Pryor / Arguello
Said ray moved up to get away from Aaron Pryor.
Before those dates you mentioned they were both at one time lightweights..so at no point did Pryor move down

You're really citing "Legendary Nights" as a source?

It's hilarious how Mayweather refers to Duran as a 'lightweight', as if Duran is a nothing fighter.

Duran was the best fighter of the 70s and he belongs in the conversation about who is the greatest lightweight of all-time.

He was also still very much in his prime and was comfortable at 147 despite being the 135 kingpin.

Bujia wrote: ↑01 Jul 2020, 11:08

Duran1970 wrote: ↑01 Jul 2020, 10:23 Legendary nights: Pryor / Arguello
Said ray moved up to get away from Aaron Pryor.
Before those dates you mentioned they were both at one time lightweights..so at no point did Pryor move down

You're really citing "Legendary Nights" as a source?

Bitch Lewis I believe

---15:45---

Sugar Ray Leonard was the undisputed welterweight champion in 1981.

Syntax Error wrote: ↑01 Jul 2020, 11:33 It's hilarious how Mayweather refers to Duran as a 'lightweight', as if Duran is a nothing fighter.

Duran was the best fighter of the 70s and he belongs in the conversation about who is the greatest lightweight of all-time.

He was also still very much in his prime and was comfortable at 147 despite being the 135 kingpin.

Duran is a beast.

Also, this Mayweather bashing threads are pretty boyish!

Durans lightyears better than castillo. Mayweather is a fool. Hes not the best at 135 or 147. Its easy to name fighters throughout history better than him

apollo creed wrote: ↑01 Jul 2020, 10:51 Looking back at FMJ's resume I could see why he is having this argue. He fought very good fighters in multiple divisions.

Castillo, Gatti, Baldomir, ODLH, Hatton, Marquez, Mosley, Cotto, Alvarez , Maidana and Pacquiao.

Very few of them, if any are better than Duran, Hearns, and Hagler. In fact, NONE of them would even beat even the past it Hagler that Leonard fought.

He's right about the Marquez hypocrisy. Leonard rates ahead of him for beating greater fighters but it would be silly to expect Floyd not to think he's the greatest.

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑02 Jul 2020, 11:42

apollo creed wrote: ↑01 Jul 2020, 10:51 Looking back at FMJ's resume I could see why he is having this argue. He fought very good fighters in multiple divisions.

Castillo, Gatti, Baldomir, ODLH, Hatton, Marquez, Mosley, Cotto, Alvarez , Maidana and Pacquiao.

Very few of them, if any are better than Duran, Hearns, and Hagler. In fact, NONE of them would even beat even the past it Hagler that Leonard fought.

Yes. The best chance would be for a peak Pacquiao, but I doubt it.

Taking it further I would argue that although the cleverest matchmaker was Leonard, the fact that all four fought each other is quite impressive in itself.

I wouldn't even want to mention Mayweather in the same breath. For sure he may be the greatest matchmaker and puller of strings we've ever seen, but that's it. Most of his interesting fights were the ones he should have lost (Castillo, DLH, Hatton and Maidana). etc.

If ever there was a protected boxer with an enormous chip on his shoulder...

People criticize Mayweather for not fighting certain fighters or not fighting them at the right time but realistically I don't see how he did a worse job of facing his contemporaries than many other fighters whose careers aren't scrutinized to the same degree.

Sugar Ray Robinson missed out on plenty of dangerous opponents, so did Tony Zale, so did Larry Holmes.

He personally don't rate Floyd better than Leonard but his point does make sense. Floyd never loss to lightweight at a higher weight. Fair play.

world ranked wrote: ↑03 Jul 2020, 18:18 He personally don't rate Floyd better than Leonard but his point does make sense. Floyd never loss to lightweight at a higher weight. Fair play.

Why don't you rate Floyd better than Ray?