BoxRec

I'm really not trying to create a debate on his greatness.

What i really specifically i am after is how much better do you think Jack Johnson got from 1906 to 1910?
1909 is really the heart of his peak during the heavyweight. I think after the Jeffries fighter he started a sharp decline.

I'm curious how much you think more advanced he may have got from diet better training and maybe better sparring partners.

Just myself i always think of Johnson as Cruiserweight when he was fighting most of his notable opponents he was always under 190lbs. A natural Cruiserweight. Obviously in a time frame when real over 200lbs Heavyweights weren't very common.

But he rounded out into quite a natural heavyweight.

Reading the coverage of his Nov fight with another classic Cruiserweight Jeannette, Johnson was really just barely better than him it certainly was really close. This was the last fight of his peer group (the other black fighters)>

I think my mind it's very debatable he was clearly better than his peers in 1906. He should have fought Mcvey who was a natural heavyweight at that time.

It would have really indicated far better where Johnson was at in his career.

Mcvey mysteriously disappeared in 1905. When Mcvey fought him his was basically in his amatuer career, i don't think most people realize Mcvey was on 18 years old and barely a man and Johnson is 25 years old well established. Mcvey jumped off the deep end instantly in his opponent pool.

In Feb 1906 Frank Cartilo says that Mcvey has improved 90% since he fought Jack Johnson.
"You know that Mcvey was really a green fighter" said Frank. "Nobody ever taught him anything and he depended on his great strength and endurance to win his fights. When he came up to Bakersfeild i put him to boxing and taught somethings. "Sam has improved more than you can think and i would now like to match him with Al Kaufmann. I will give as larger of a side bet as he wants"

March 1907 Mcvey first states he wants Johnson.

Dec 1907 its all over the press they are trying to get the match made the money is available.

Dec 1907 The only problem is Mcvey is in France and Johnson is in america.

Get this April of 1908 Jack Johnson goes to Paris and wont sign the deal to fight Mcvey while he is the country and getting offered big money, because he is following Tommy Burns trying to get that fight and wasn't about to jeopardize his record.

Spring of 1908 Jack Johnson would have been under 190 and fighting Mcvey around 200 lbs a true Heavyweight.

So had history treated us correctly and Mcvey fought Johnson in spring of 1908

How much better would Johnson have been having a rematch say in the spring of 1910 before he fought Jeffries.

A this point we would have an epic clash of both at full fledge heavyweights.

I'm just curious more how greatly you think he improved. Obviously he had to lose some honing of his craft against far better competition of his peer group (mcvey jeanette battling Jim Johnson).

Johnson was really fighting competition below his normal competition level as the champion.

Did he really get far superior? Because we don't really know he superior to Mcvey in 1908.

Mcvey would of at this point had a style that Johnson wasn't familiar with and Johnson had a bad habit of starting slow.

In a 20 round fight it would be highly likely it would end in a draw in 1908.

in a 20 round fight in 1910 i'm conflicted i think Johnson would be far stronger than as a cruiserweight. But i bet he may have been not super sharp as he wasn't getting challenged.

How much do you think he improved as a champion? Dramatically? Could he knock out Mcvey in a rematch? I mean i sure would of loved to see that match. Even if he still avoided Langford as least he would of conquered Mcvey.

I'm sure Mcvey would of been just as impressive of a champion than Johnson was...Just because he wasn't given that opportunity we can't assume he wasn't as great. He obviously was capable of beating Langford at his very best of his prime. The odds are Mcvey would be capable of beating a prime Johnson. Mcvey called out Burns in march of 1908 and was chasing Burns for a fight also and it would of been a gigantic had they fought in Paris like 40,000 spectators Mcvey had a huge following.

It's dastardly to have both men chasing Tommy Burns and then one win's and won't fight the other competition that was chasing Burns for a fight, now as a champion. I entirely think Mcvey would have fought Johnson had he beat Burns for the Title.

The really sad part most of you may not realize is Johnson tried to actually secure a match with Mcvey in Sep of 1921, to give Mcvey a pay day in poor health but he just wasn't ring ready and died in dec and Johnson had to pay for the funeral.

This should of been the last of a trilogy fights. 1908 1910 and 1921.

But we only got a 25 year old against an 18 year old in 1903. I mean that isn't fair to judge ones career arch.

How much do you think he improved as a champion? Dramatically? Could he knock out Mcvey in a rematch in spring of 1910?

Lol don't mention that Sammy was just a teeny bopper when fully grown and mature JJ fought him, the Johnson defense force here gets a bit sensitive about it

Johnson should have defended the title against McVey, Langford, and Jeannette. Langford was probably the best of the three, followed by Jeannette, and then McVey. All three are probably in the Top 25 heavyweights of all time.

They were all great fighters. Johnson didn't think the risk/reward was worth it.
Johnson had started his ring career fighting blindfolded against other black kids. some whites thought it was funny. He was from Texas in the Jim Crow era. Not exactly a good time and place to be black.
He fought whoever and whenever he could for several years. He had been fighting for 11 years before he finally got a title shot. He knew the importance of being the champ and was not going risk losing it easily.

Johnson better than them when he won the title in 1908. He probably would have beaten any other them. He was 30 years old and still in his prime. After a few years, he began to slip. By 1912 or so, he may have lost to one of them.
So to answer the question from the topic, he didn't really progress as a fighter while champion; he had already been in his prime for a few years. He was about the same for a few years, then started to decline as he got old.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Aug 2020, 18:34 Lol don't mention that Sammy was just a teeny bopper when fully grown and mature JJ fought him, the Johnson defense force here gets a bit sensitive about it

Sorry i didn't realize that was a sore spot. I have no idea why Mcvey stopped fighting in 1905 but that was quite apparently his amatuer days in 1903 as indicated by the quote from his trainer.

I am curious as to if Johnson switched training teams or what he may have upgraded with him as the Champion.

Mcvey when he finally got out of being stranded in Australia in 1913 was the betting favorite with most of his matches in 1915 against both Jeanette and Langford. That says quite a bit about how he was regarded by people with money. By this i mean odds pre-fight which are displayed in many papers. Which is a really good indicator for me. For how he is perceived by the press currently in the year of instead of looking at it with hindsight.

The guy that could of really made a fortune on a book would of been Jim Barry he was fighting all of them in their prime. He would of had a really good idea of who was the toughest. I'll see if i can find something on the matter.

Thanks for any input.

You can see in beginning of 1908 Johnson stalled his entire career as to avoid any serious risks before he became Champion a clear indicator of what was to come as the champion. It had to affect his development i would assume but maybe it's a large assumption. He clearly had a huge payday waiting for him in the spring of 1908 with Mcvey and both of them in France at the same time in may 1908 also with Langford.

The 2 things that struck me mightily with Mcvey was when he fought Langford after the Sydney Australia disaster in 1913 recorded as a Draw. They had both finally got the hell out of down under. The night before the fight Mcvey was a 10 to 6 Favorite in betting. The fight recorded as a draw Mcvey appeared to have lost in the press. But the press all viewed him as superior to Langford it was a shock that Langford was looking better to them. Next Mcvey destroys one of the top actually heavyweights who were a white hope in Colin Bell. Then finally after years of waiting gets his chance at Wills. Dec 1914 a tough fight that is near a draw but Mcvey certain got bigger blows. Then when they meet again in may of 1915. Mcvey thrashed him in the follow up fight and proved the superior.

So Mcvey was thought of being better than Langford in 1913 than beat him in the next meeting in 1915. And he got the best of Harry Wills when he himself was still in his prime. At the time it was the old school Mcvey vs the New school fighter Harry Wills. I think had Mcvey been given a chance at Johnson he was in position to show he was the best of the bunch. Not the worst. Reading the current newspapers in 1915 it appears as Mcvey is regarded as the best of Langford and Jeannette and he proved by thrashing Wills when he was granted a chance at next level competition.

Im pretty certain Mcvey would of thrashed Burns had he been given the chance. And i do believe Mcvey won't have ducked Johnson as the heavyweight champ. I'm not saying Mcvey is better than Johnson. I'm saying it appears he was thought of in higher regard than some may realize. And it seems ludicrous to assume Jack Johnson would clearly beat Mcvey. I can easily see a draw first meeting. And it's highly questionable Johnson would thrash Harry Wills in 1915. Mcvey might have seriously messed Johnson up in title fight in 1915 the same year mCvey was beating up Harry Wills. The fights with Wills were close. This was before Wills had him figured out in the 3rd meeting. Mcvey could of taken a much different trajectory with his career and not be in a position to get exposed by fighting the same fighters over and over. Johnson surely would of gotten exposed also fighting Wills in 3-4 fights no different than Mcvey did. I don't really hold that against Mcvey, he beat him when he first meet him then dominated him more in the return bout greater not less. Every indication is in place for Mcvey to be the better than may appear too me. He was the fighter who honed his skills against the best there was to offer at the time and appeared to have the upper hand in several instances with the most difficult of competition.

I always ventured his prime was before he won the title.

Would be awesome if we had some pre-title video of him, but we don't. He was already 30 when he finally got a title shot. Very few guys improve after that. My best guess is that he was still pretty close to his prime when he won the title, and then gradually declined as he got older.

Benny The Kid wrote: ↑16 Aug 2020, 22:41

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Aug 2020, 18:34 Lol don't mention that Sammy was just a teeny bopper when fully grown and mature JJ fought him, the Johnson defense force here gets a bit sensitive about it

Sorry i didn't realize that was a sore spot. I have no idea why Mcvey stopped fighting in 1905 but that was quite apparently his amatuer days in 1903 as indicated by the quote from his trainer.

I am curious as to if Johnson switched training teams or what he may have upgraded with him as the Champion.

Mcvey when he finally got out of being stranded in Australia in 1913 was the betting favorite with most of his matches in 1915 against both Jeanette and Langford. That says quite a bit about how he was regarded by people with money. By this i mean odds pre-fight which are displayed in many papers. Which is a really good indicator for me. For how he is perceived by the press currently in the year of instead of looking at it with hindsight.

The guy that could of really made a fortune on a book would of been Jim Barry he was fighting all of them in their prime. He would of had a really good idea of who was the toughest. I'll see if i can find something on the matter.

Thanks for any input.

You can see in beginning of 1908 Johnson stalled his entire career as to avoid any serious risks before he became Champion a clear indicator of what was to come as the champion. It had to affect his development i would assume but maybe it's a large assumption. He clearly had a huge payday waiting for him in the spring of 1908 with Mcvey and both of them in France at the same time in may 1908 also with Langford.

The 2 things that struck me mightily with Mcvey was when he fought Langford after the Sydney Australia disaster in 1913 recorded as a Draw. They had both finally got the hell out of down under. The night before the fight Mcvey was a 10 to 6 Favorite in betting. The fight recorded as a draw Mcvey appeared to have lost in the press. But the press all viewed him as superior to Langford it was a shock that Langford was looking better to them. Next Mcvey destroys one of the top actually heavyweights who were a white hope in Colin Bell. Then finally after years of waiting gets his chance at Wills. Dec 1914 a tough fight that is near a draw but Mcvey certain got bigger blows. Then when they meet again in may of 1915. Mcvey thrashed him in the follow up fight and proved the superior.

So Mcvey was thought of being better than Langford in 1913 than beat him in the next meeting in 1915. And he got the best of Harry Wills when he himself was still in his prime. At the time it was the old school Mcvey vs the New school fighter Harry Wills. I think had Mcvey been given a chance at Johnson he was in position to show he was the best of the bunch. Not the worst. Reading the current newspapers in 1915 it appears as Mcvey is regarded as the best of Langford and Jeannette and he proved by thrashing Wills when he was granted a chance at next level competition.

Im pretty certain Mcvey would of thrashed Burns had he been given the chance. And i do believe Mcvey won't have ducked Johnson as the heavyweight champ. I'm not saying Mcvey is better than Johnson. I'm saying it appears he was thought of in higher regard than some may realize. And it seems ludicrous to assume Jack Johnson would clearly beat Mcvey. I can easily see a draw first meeting. And it's highly questionable Johnson would thrash Harry Wills in 1915. Mcvey might have seriously messed Johnson up in title fight in 1915 the same year mCvey was beating up Harry Wills. The fights with Wills were close. This was before Wills had him figured out in the 3rd meeting. Mcvey could of taken a much different trajectory with his career and not be in a position to get exposed by fighting the same fighters over and over. Johnson surely would of gotten exposed also fighting Wills in 3-4 fights no different than Mcvey did. I don't really hold that against Mcvey, he beat him when he first meet him then dominated him more in the return bout greater not less. Every indication is in place for Mcvey to be the better than may appear too me. He was the fighter who honed his skills against the best there was to offer at the time and appeared to have the upper hand in several instances with the most difficult of competition.

Sam McVey's career as a professional boxer was in the doldrums after he was took a beating for a third time and was knocked out in a bout with Jack Johnson in San Francisco and lost a decision in a rematch with Denver Ed Martin in Los Angeles, all during 1904. Note that he never fought in Los Angeles and San Francisco again after those bouts. McVey was able to knock out Martin in two bouts afterwards, but he had to leave California to jumpstart his career during 1907.

- Chuck Johnston