BoxRec

I have seen the old fight footage from their 16.Oct.1909 fight in Colma,California numerous times,on ESPN classic sports channel and elsewhere.But has anyone seen a reel where it completly shows the knockdown in round 12 of Jack Johnson?All the times ive seen,it it looks like some film frames were removed by a collector right at the moments that Ketchils right hand hits Johnson and he goes down.
Does anyone know if a complete version of this round has been unearthed somewhere?

Brutu wrote:I have seen the old fight footage from their 16.Oct.1909 fight in Colma,California numerous times,on ESPN classic sports channel and elsewhere.But has anyone seen a reel where it completly shows the knockdown in round 12 of Jack Johnson?All the times ive seen,it it looks like some film frames were removed by a collector right at the moments that Ketchils right hand hits Johnson and he goes down.
Does anyone know if a complete version of this round has been unearthed somewhere?

ESPN’s version of the fight is not the best version. I have seen another version of Johnson vs Ketchel that has more frames in it. It shows Johnson landing a hard right hand. I believe the some of the films ESPN bought from Bill Clayton have degraded over the years. Some frames might be un viewable, so it’s very plausible that ESPN deleted out these frames which is why the action seems to leap at light speed at times.

EPSN's version of Johnson vs Willard is also lacking. I have seen a rare Ko clip of Johnson vs Willard, where you can really see the punch that Willard lands. One point of interest is the Willard vs Johnson film was considered lost at one point. There was debate over the KO punch that Willard landed. Some said it was an uppercut. The real punch was an overhand right.

In 1970 a feature length movie documentary was released called,
JACK JOHNSON,
it had the old fight films from the collection of Bill Cayton and Jim Jacobs,BIG FIGHTS INC.
Who also produced and directed it.
This documentary won a Academy Award.It was narrated by Brock Peters.
ESPN classic shows the footage from that collection.
The frames where Ketchels big punch actually lands on Jack Johnson jaw , are missing,so you cant really tell if it landed cleanly or was a grazing blow that knocked Johnson down.
1970 was also the year, that THE GREAT WHITE HOPE
starring James Earl Jones was released(it had been a popular Broadway play
before that.
There was a lot of public retro interest about Jack Johnson then.

Its been said(in books"according to legend" and by smarmy ESPN hosts, that
Jack Johnson agreed to carry Ketchal for the length of the fight for the benifit of the cameras,and that in the 12th round Ketchel double crossed Johnson and tried to knock him out with the big right hand,however when you think about it,if thats true ,
if any one was double crossed,it was Stanley Ketchel,because Johnson was battering and bloodying him up until the 12th round.
I believe the claim is BS sour grapes,just like the claim that Johnson took a dive against Jess Willard in 1915.In that fight Willard hit him with a left to the body and landed a big right in the 26th round(scheduled for 45)
Johnson went after Willard in the first round but couldnt put him away.
Willard prepared himself for 10 months of solid and intense training prior to that fight,and got angry whenever anyone mentioned Johnson,so that even his sparrring partners were afraid of him.Willard looked serious in the 1915 fight too.

Did anyone here see the PBS show earlier this week about Jack Johnson?
I did not get to see it.
Did they show the same old footage from BIGFIGHTS INC,used on ESPN classics channel?
Thats grainy,murkey and missing frames from key moments.
If they did, did they at least cleaned it up and digitally restored it?

Brutu wrote:Did anyone here see the PBS show earlier this week about Jack Johnson?
I did not get to see it.
Did they show the same old footage from BIGFIGHTS INC,used on ESPN classics channel?
Thats grainy,murkey and missing frames from key moments.
If they did, did they at least cleaned it up and digitally restored it?

I watched it and it seemed to me it landed, but I'm going by memory. I'll check over it later and slow it down to check.

EDIT
It was a wild right that Jack tried to duck but landed either a little above his ear or behind the head, probably shaking up Johnson more because it hit him in the back of the head. All the frames seem to be their, only is difficult to see it land because Jack ducks and his shoulder blocks the sight of the shot.

And you missed a great documentary Brutu, a lot of the footage was great. The slow motion shots they showed were the best, for example they slowed down the action and showed Johnson landing crushing uppercuts to Burns and Jeffries that really show his inside skills and power.

I live in America,but the digital satellite company blocks out PBS(unless I pay extra,for supposedly a free channel.,but i wont give in.
BTW
Did they show in slow motion the left to the body and the big right hand that Willard landed on Johnson in the 26th round?

The film of all the biggest bouts - Burns, Ketchel, Jeffries, Willard - seemed to have been restored for the documentary. There seemed to be no frames missing and you could get a good look at all the shots. They showed a Willard right hand to the chest in rd. 26 that really took the starch out of Jack.
And the exchange with Ketchel looked clearer than I've ever seen it. Jack's finishing right looks devastating, right down the pipe, square on the puss.
I'm surprised no one has started a thread about the documentary. I thought everyone on this forum would have been glued to the TV. Was it unavailable in the UK? Is it scheduled to be shown there?

Brutu wrote:I live in America,but the digital satellite company blocks out PBS(unless I pay extra,for supposedly a free channel.,but i wont give in.
BTW
Did they show in slow motion the left to the body and the big right hand that Willard landed on Johnson in the 26th round?

I only saw a hard chest shot in the 25th, which took the air out of Johnson, ringsiders saw and heard him gasp. In the 26th, they showed once the big straight right hand. It landed right at the side of the temple. To me it looked like Johnson was tired(which was obvious) and thought he could move his head back to avoid it, but he couldn't do it, as he was 38 and too old and his reflexes were gone and his stamina was gone from the heat. If scheduled for 20 or 25 rounds like the norm of the period, Jack would still would have been champ.

Wasn't Johnson-Jeffries scheduled for 45 rounds? Had it been only 25, Jess would just have pressed the older Johnson a round or two earlier. Jack got beat, plain and simple.

Over at the cyber boxing site,someone mentioned that some frames were missing from the knock down by Ketchel.
Its been a while since Ive seen the footage.the frames may be missing from when the right being thrown.All I know is there is a noticable jump in the editing frame sequence.

BTW
according to http://www.imdb.com
Jess Willard starred in a one reeler released in 1915,entitled
HEART PUNCH
ianyone know if this is footage from the fight with Jack Johnson or a reanactment of it?

Brutu wrote:Its been said(in books"according to legend" and by smarmy ESPN hosts, that
Jack Johnson agreed to carry Ketchal for the length of the fight for the benifit of the cameras,and that in the 12th round Ketchel double crossed Johnson and tried to knock him out with the big right hand,however when you think about it,if thats true ,
if any one was double crossed,it was Stanley Ketchel,because Johnson was battering and bloodying him up until the 12th round.
I believe the claim is BS sour grapes,just like the claim that Johnson took a dive against Jess Willard in 1915.In that fight Willard hit him with a left to the body and landed a big right in the 26th round(scheduled for 45)
Johnson went after Willard in the first round but couldnt put him away.
Willard prepared himself for 10 months of solid and intense training prior to that fight,and got angry whenever anyone mentioned Johnson,so that even his sparrring partners were afraid of him.Willard looked serious in the 1915 fight too.

I agree with all of the above. Many pepole forget that Johnson actualy knocked Ketchel down first in the fifth or sixth round so that old story about Johnson carrying Ketchel is most def. bullshit. I also don't think Johnson took a dive against Willard His ass was totaly kicked that day and no excuses can change that.

I also think Johnson was one of the most overrated champions ever. He would't stand a chance even in today's so called weak era.

crooked nose wrote:I'm surprised no one has started a thread about the documentary. I thought everyone on this forum would have been glued to the TV. Was it unavailable in the UK? Is it scheduled to be shown there?

PBS is the channel that shows the BBC stuff isn't it? Is the documentary called "the fight" which was about Johnson and also Joe Louis? That one had some great footage unfortunately my flat mate taped an NFL game ove it

The Scranton Assassin wrote:

Brutu wrote:Its been said(in books"according to legend" and by smarmy ESPN hosts, that
Jack Johnson agreed to carry Ketchal for the length of the fight for the benifit of the cameras,and that in the 12th round Ketchel double crossed Johnson and tried to knock him out with the big right hand,however when you think about it,if thats true ,
if any one was double crossed,it was Stanley Ketchel,because Johnson was battering and bloodying him up until the 12th round.
I believe the claim is BS sour grapes,just like the claim that Johnson took a dive against Jess Willard in 1915.In that fight Willard hit him with a left to the body and landed a big right in the 26th round(scheduled for 45)
Johnson went after Willard in the first round but couldnt put him away.
Willard prepared himself for 10 months of solid and intense training prior to that fight,and got angry whenever anyone mentioned Johnson,so that even his sparrring partners were afraid of him.Willard looked serious in the 1915 fight too.

I agree with all of the above. Many pepole forget that Johnson actualy knocked Ketchel down first in the fifth or sixth round so that old story about Johnson carrying Ketchel is most def. bullshit. I also don't think Johnson took a dive against Willard His ass was totaly kicked that day and no excuses can change that.

SA-Johnson clearly carries Ketchel in that fight . . .in fact he literally ´carries´ Stanley and holds him up several times so Ketchel wont go down. Just b-c Stanley was all bloodied and bruised doesnt mean Johnson was giving his all. The fact that Johnson KOd Ketchel cold with the NEXT puncha after his own KD adds further confirmation.

As to the Williard fight, and old and undertrained Johnson was beating Jess up for the first 20 rounds before exhaustion set in . . . it was hardly his ´ass getting kicked´ as you so eloquently describe . .

J-C wrote: PBS is the channel that shows the BBC stuff isn't it? Is the documentary called "the fight" which was about Johnson and also Joe Louis? That one had some great footage unfortunately my flat mate taped an NFL game ove it

"The Fight" was about the relationship between Joe Louis and Max Schmeling. I havn't had the time to watch it the whole way through but had a lot of footage of Schmeling, who I believe it focuses on more. Also, I remember it has a photo of Schmeling with Dempsey, which made me realize that they uncanningly look alike, not twins but could pass as brothers in my opinion.

From what I've seen it was an interesting and fun documentary to watch, to bad your flatmate taped over it :x

I believe Jack Johnson was actually more into punishing Ketchel
l(like he did with Tommy Burns) for the moving pictures
rather then just carrying Ketchel to make Ketchel look worthy enough to be able to stand in with him over rounds for the movie audiences,
Johnson was probably waiting for the 13th round to KO Ketchel,
except of course Ketchel threw the big right hand
before the 12th round was over.
I would be interested to know where on Johnson the punch landed,if it landed flush on his jaw or on Johnson's cheek.
Also Johnson was definatly KO'd by Willard in the 26th round,
you can tell,because in the famous photo,his legs are drawn up,which happens when fighters are still concious but in agony.
Johnson was 37,but Willard was only several years younger,only only had about 3 years of boxing experience,so that should be taken in account.
Johnson was also busy fighting while in France, fought a 20 rounder with Frank Moran .
Yeah,sure Jack Johnson looked real good and formadable fighting guys who were 5'7 inches tall like Burns and Ketchel,but Willard was 6'7 and 250 lbs,he couldnt do that with him .