BoxRec

Fought in the golden era of heavies.

Beat everyone he faced.

Great Boxer, slugger.

Awesome resume.

Olympic champ.

Cool dreadlocks.

Definitely had luck on his side. Prime Holyfield and Bowe would have wrecked him.

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 16:59 Definitely had luck on his side. Prime Holyfield and Bowe would have wrecked him.

Didn't Bowe duck him?

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 16:59 Definitely had luck on his side. Prime Holyfield and Bowe would have wrecked him.

edsnowden wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 16:53 Fought in the golden era of heavies.

Beat everyone he faced.

Great Boxer, slugger.

Awesome resume.

Olympic champ.

Cool dreadlocks.

I don't know about the Golden Era, but I'd consider it the 2nd best era of Heavyweight Boxing, and he was the king of it. I'd rank him in the Top 5 all time or Top 6 all time, but not the very best.

He had an absolutely phenomenal career though. No doubt about it.

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 16:59 Definitely had luck on his side. Prime Holyfield and Bowe would have wrecked him.

Bowe was afraid of him. Prime Holyfield would've done better than the version of Holyfield he faced. I don't think he would've "wrecked him", but he could've beaten him certainly in a competitive fight.

edsnowden wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 17:04

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 16:59 Definitely had luck on his side. Prime Holyfield and Bowe would have wrecked him.

Didn't Bowe duck him?

Point refuted a thousand times on this forum but I'll do it again. Rock Newman had him dump the WBC belt to milk some easy big money defences.

In 94 Bowe and Lewis signed to fight each other, but Lewis blew it by losing to McCall.

In 96 Bowe tried fight Lewis again. HBO conceived Bowe/Holy III and Lewis/Morrison as a mini tourney to determine the true best heavy (King/Showtime having Tyson and the alphabelts) but Lewis turned down the fight in favour of what appeared to be an easier assignment vs Mercer.

Lewis is 2-1 in the culpability stakes. Also, he dumped the WBA belt rather than fight Ruiz and IBF rather than fight Byrd, so he can hardly talk.

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:35

edsnowden wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 17:04

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 16:59 Definitely had luck on his side. Prime Holyfield and Bowe would have wrecked him.

Didn't Bowe duck him?

Point refuted a thousand times on this forum but I'll do it again. Rock Newman had him dump the WBC belt to milk some easy big money defences.

In 94 Bowe and Lewis signed to fight each other, but Lewis blew it by losing to McCall.

In 96 Bowe tried fight Lewis again. HBO conceived Bowe/Holy III and Lewis/Morrison as a mini tourney to determine the true best heavy (King/Showtime having Tyson and the alphabelts) but Lewis turned down the fight in favour of what appeared to be an easier assignment vs Mercer.

Lewis is 2-1 in the culpability stakes. Also, he dumped the WBA belt rather than fight Ruiz and IBF rather than fight Byrd, so he can hardly talk.

No one can possibly believe that Lewis ducked Ruiz or Byrd. Please sir, stop your nonsense.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:17

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 16:59 Definitely had luck on his side. Prime Holyfield and Bowe would have wrecked him.

Bowe was afraid of him. Prime Holyfield would've done better than the version of Holyfield he faced. I don't think he would've "wrecked him", but he could've beaten him certainly in a competitive fight.

I disagree that Bowe was afraid of him. The optics of dumping the belt in the garbage can were indeed poor, and Rock Newman's fault, but Newman making him 10m vs Dokes was good business. Bowe got too fat and lost the titles, wasn't part of the plan; he would have fought Lewis next and even having lost his belts and leverage still signed to fight Lewis anyway.

oogiebe wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:38

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:35

edsnowden wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 17:04

Didn't Bowe duck him?

Point refuted a thousand times on this forum but I'll do it again. Rock Newman had him dump the WBC belt to milk some easy big money defences.

In 94 Bowe and Lewis signed to fight each other, but Lewis blew it by losing to McCall.

In 96 Bowe tried fight Lewis again. HBO conceived Bowe/Holy III and Lewis/Morrison as a mini tourney to determine the true best heavy (King/Showtime having Tyson and the alphabelts) but Lewis turned down the fight in favour of what appeared to be an easier assignment vs Mercer.

Lewis is 2-1 in the culpability stakes. Also, he dumped the WBA belt rather than fight Ruiz and IBF rather than fight Byrd, so he can hardly talk.

No one can possibly believe that Lewis ducked Ruiz or Byrd. Please sir, stop your nonsense.

Take it up with Lewis. He spent 10 years trying to unify the belts then immediately dumped one in favour of a gimme vs Michael Grant. Could he not just have fought Ruiz, kept the belt and fought Grant next instead?

Ruiz and Grant, undisputed
Grant and Botha, fragmented belt

What do you prefer?

Here is Lewis resume:

Holyfield
Tyson
Vitali K
Tua
Golota
Ruddock
Rahman
Briggs
Mercer
Morrison

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:39

gilgamesh wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:17

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 16:59 Definitely had luck on his side. Prime Holyfield and Bowe would have wrecked him.

Bowe was afraid of him. Prime Holyfield would've done better than the version of Holyfield he faced. I don't think he would've "wrecked him", but he could've beaten him certainly in a competitive fight.

I disagree that Bowe was afraid of him. The optics of dumping the belt in the garbage can were indeed poor, and Rock Newman's fault, but Newman making him 10m vs Dokes was good business. Bowe got too fat and lost the titles, wasn't part of the plan; he would have fought Lewis next and even having lost his belts and leverage still signed to fight Lewis anyway.

You can disagree all you want, but you threw his belt away so as not to fight him, and then proceeded to never fight him.

That's called being afraid where I come from.

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:41

oogiebe wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:38

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:35

Point refuted a thousand times on this forum but I'll do it again. Rock Newman had him dump the WBC belt to milk some easy big money defences.

In 94 Bowe and Lewis signed to fight each other, but Lewis blew it by losing to McCall.

In 96 Bowe tried fight Lewis again. HBO conceived Bowe/Holy III and Lewis/Morrison as a mini tourney to determine the true best heavy (King/Showtime having Tyson and the alphabelts) but Lewis turned down the fight in favour of what appeared to be an easier assignment vs Mercer.

Lewis is 2-1 in the culpability stakes. Also, he dumped the WBA belt rather than fight Ruiz and IBF rather than fight Byrd, so he can hardly talk.

No one can possibly believe that Lewis ducked Ruiz or Byrd. Please sir, stop your nonsense.

Take it up with Lewis. He spent 10 years trying to unify the belts then immediately dumped one in favour of a gimme vs Michael Grant. Could he not just have fought Ruiz, kept the belt and fought Grant next instead?

Ruiz and Grant, undisputed
Grant and Botha, fragmented belt

What do you prefer?

Becoming Undisputed is a joke in modern Boxing. Even if you have all the belts one of them will make up a reason to strip you just because.

Lennox Lewis was the Recognized Undisputed Champion. Ruiz and Byrd were contenders who had meaningless belts. He had bigger fish to fry.

He fought Tyson and Vitali Klitschko in 2002 and 2003 respectively. Both of those fights were bigger than a fight with Ruiz or Byrd could've ever been.

edsnowden wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:41 Here is Lewis resume:

Holyfield
Tyson
Vitali K
Tua
Golota
Ruddock
Rahman
Briggs
Mercer
Morrison

Preaching to the Choir buddy.

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:41

oogiebe wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:38

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:35

Point refuted a thousand times on this forum but I'll do it again. Rock Newman had him dump the WBC belt to milk some easy big money defences.

In 94 Bowe and Lewis signed to fight each other, but Lewis blew it by losing to McCall.

In 96 Bowe tried fight Lewis again. HBO conceived Bowe/Holy III and Lewis/Morrison as a mini tourney to determine the true best heavy (King/Showtime having Tyson and the alphabelts) but Lewis turned down the fight in favour of what appeared to be an easier assignment vs Mercer.

Lewis is 2-1 in the culpability stakes. Also, he dumped the WBA belt rather than fight Ruiz and IBF rather than fight Byrd, so he can hardly talk.

No one can possibly believe that Lewis ducked Ruiz or Byrd. Please sir, stop your nonsense.

Take it up with Lewis. He spent 10 years trying to unify the belts then immediately dumped one in favour of a gimme vs Michael Grant. Could he not just have fought Ruiz, kept the belt and fought Grant next instead?

Ruiz and Grant, undisputed
Grant and Botha, fragmented belt

What do you prefer?

At the time, Grant was not considered a 'gimme' by anyone.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:44

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:39

gilgamesh wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:17

Bowe was afraid of him. Prime Holyfield would've done better than the version of Holyfield he faced. I don't think he would've "wrecked him", but he could've beaten him certainly in a competitive fight.

I disagree that Bowe was afraid of him. The optics of dumping the belt in the garbage can were indeed poor, and Rock Newman's fault, but Newman making him 10m vs Dokes was good business. Bowe got too fat and lost the titles, wasn't part of the plan; he would have fought Lewis next and even having lost his belts and leverage still signed to fight Lewis anyway.

You can disagree all you want, but you threw his belt away so as not to fight him, and then proceeded to never fight him.

That's called being afraid where I come from.

HOW MANY TIMES?

BOWE SIGNED TO FIGHT LEWIS!

LEWIS BLEW IT LOSING TO MCCALL!!

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND!?!

oogiebe wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:48

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:41

oogiebe wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:38
No one can possibly believe that Lewis ducked Ruiz or Byrd. Please sir, stop your nonsense.

Take it up with Lewis. He spent 10 years trying to unify the belts then immediately dumped one in favour of a gimme vs Michael Grant. Could he not just have fought Ruiz, kept the belt and fought Grant next instead?

Ruiz and Grant, undisputed
Grant and Botha, fragmented belt

What do you prefer?

At the time, Grant was not considered a 'gimme' by anyone.

Yes he was

oogiebe wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:48

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:41

oogiebe wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:38
No one can possibly believe that Lewis ducked Ruiz or Byrd. Please sir, stop your nonsense.

Take it up with Lewis. He spent 10 years trying to unify the belts then immediately dumped one in favour of a gimme vs Michael Grant. Could he not just have fought Ruiz, kept the belt and fought Grant next instead?

Ruiz and Grant, undisputed
Grant and Botha, fragmented belt

What do you prefer?

At the time, Grant was not considered a 'gimme' by anyone.

Indeed. Only in retrospect is he seen as a weak opponent. At the time he was presented as a legitimate threat, and was certainly big enough to look like one.

This fight was the beginning of people realizing his limitations.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:46

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:41

oogiebe wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:38
No one can possibly believe that Lewis ducked Ruiz or Byrd. Please sir, stop your nonsense.

Take it up with Lewis. He spent 10 years trying to unify the belts then immediately dumped one in favour of a gimme vs Michael Grant. Could he not just have fought Ruiz, kept the belt and fought Grant next instead?

Ruiz and Grant, undisputed
Grant and Botha, fragmented belt

What do you prefer?

Becoming Undisputed is a joke in modern Boxing. Even if you have all the belts one of them will make up a reason to strip you just because.

Lennox Lewis was the Recognized Undisputed Champion. Ruiz and Byrd were contenders who had meaningless belts. He had bigger fish to fry.

He fought Tyson and Vitali Klitschko in 2002 and 2003 respectively. Both of those fights were bigger than a fight with Ruiz or Byrd could've ever been.

God you're retarded.

He dumped the WBA belt for a gimme with Grant.

He dumped the IBF for a gimme rematch with the corpse of Tyson, who he had already beaten to death.

Vitali was a last minute sub for Kirk Johnson. Kirk Johnson! The man who lost to John Ruiz!!

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:51

gilgamesh wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:44

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:39

I disagree that Bowe was afraid of him. The optics of dumping the belt in the garbage can were indeed poor, and Rock Newman's fault, but Newman making him 10m vs Dokes was good business. Bowe got too fat and lost the titles, wasn't part of the plan; he would have fought Lewis next and even having lost his belts and leverage still signed to fight Lewis anyway.

You can disagree all you want, but you threw his belt away so as not to fight him, and then proceeded to never fight him.

That's called being afraid where I come from.

HOW MANY TIMES?

BOWE SIGNED TO FIGHT LEWIS!

LEWIS BLEW IT LOSING TO MCCALL!!

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND!?!

What are you Rock Newman or something?

We all saw what happened dude.

Lewis blew it losing to McCall?

So did Bowe blow it by getting brain damaged against Golota who Lennox Lewis wrecked in 1 round?

Bowe ducked him. That's all there is to it.

Now maybe it was Rock Newman's decision to throw the WBC belt away, but if Bowe had wanted Lewis he didn't go anywhere.

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:53

gilgamesh wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:46

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:41

Take it up with Lewis. He spent 10 years trying to unify the belts then immediately dumped one in favour of a gimme vs Michael Grant. Could he not just have fought Ruiz, kept the belt and fought Grant next instead?

Ruiz and Grant, undisputed
Grant and Botha, fragmented belt

What do you prefer?

Becoming Undisputed is a joke in modern Boxing. Even if you have all the belts one of them will make up a reason to strip you just because.

Lennox Lewis was the Recognized Undisputed Champion. Ruiz and Byrd were contenders who had meaningless belts. He had bigger fish to fry.

He fought Tyson and Vitali Klitschko in 2002 and 2003 respectively. Both of those fights were bigger than a fight with Ruiz or Byrd could've ever been.

God you're retarded.

He dumped the WBA belt for a gimme with Grant.

He dumped the IBF for a gimme rematch with the corpse of Tyson, who he had already beaten to death.

Vitali was a last minute sub for Kirk Johnson. Kirk Johnson! The man who lost to John Ruiz!!

So you're acting as if I don't know what I'm talking about, and you think his fight with Tyson was a rematch?

I remember it was initially set to be Lewis vs Kirk Johnson. I don't recall hardly any other fighter besides Lennox taking an even more dangerous fight on short notice when their scheduled opponent backs out. Usually the opponent gets weaker than the one they had originally planned.

Because Vitali was already set to be on the undercard, and was already in training camp, but they just made the switch, and everyone was happier for it. Except for maybe Lennox who surely would've won easier against Kirk, but in retrospect I'm sure he's glad to have the win over Vitali on his record.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:52

oogiebe wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:48

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:41

Take it up with Lewis. He spent 10 years trying to unify the belts then immediately dumped one in favour of a gimme vs Michael Grant. Could he not just have fought Ruiz, kept the belt and fought Grant next instead?

Ruiz and Grant, undisputed
Grant and Botha, fragmented belt

What do you prefer?

At the time, Grant was not considered a 'gimme' by anyone.

Indeed. Only in retrospect is he seen as a weak opponent. At the time he was presented as a legitimate threat, and was certainly big enough to look like one.

This fight was the beginning of people realizing his limitations.

No it wasn't. Trainers like Manny Steward noted in 99 in Boxing Monthly that Grant was average, had no mean streak and didn't have natural athletic ability.

Getting downed twice vs Golota and being behind on points before pulling it out was what got him the fight with Lewis, who watched ringside. There is no hindsight here. Grant was a disaster waiting to happen.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:55

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:53

gilgamesh wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:46

Becoming Undisputed is a joke in modern Boxing. Even if you have all the belts one of them will make up a reason to strip you just because.

Lennox Lewis was the Recognized Undisputed Champion. Ruiz and Byrd were contenders who had meaningless belts. He had bigger fish to fry.

He fought Tyson and Vitali Klitschko in 2002 and 2003 respectively. Both of those fights were bigger than a fight with Ruiz or Byrd could've ever been.

God you're retarded.

He dumped the WBA belt for a gimme with Grant.

He dumped the IBF for a gimme rematch with the corpse of Tyson, who he had already beaten to death.

Vitali was a last minute sub for Kirk Johnson. Kirk Johnson! The man who lost to John Ruiz!!

So you're acting as if I don't know what I'm talking about, and you think his fight with Tyson was a rematch?

You clearly weren't following boxing at the time. Lennox Lewis was pursuing a 2003 rematch with Mike Tyson. Hence why they were asking Tyson about it post Etienne.

The fact you don't know what was going on in 2003 is why you have no clue that Bowe and Lewis signed to fight each other in 1994, and that Bowe and HBO tried to put together a fight with him again in 1996.

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:56

gilgamesh wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:52

oogiebe wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:48

At the time, Grant was not considered a 'gimme' by anyone.

Indeed. Only in retrospect is he seen as a weak opponent. At the time he was presented as a legitimate threat, and was certainly big enough to look like one.

This fight was the beginning of people realizing his limitations.

No it wasn't. Trainers like Manny Steward noted in 99 in Boxing Monthly that Grant was average, had no mean streak and didn't have natural athletic ability.

Getting downed twice vs Golota and being behind on points before pulling it out was what got him the fight with Lewis, who watched ringside. There is no hindsight here. Grant was a disaster waiting to happen.

And John Ruiz had been wrecked in 19 seconds by Tua who Lennox Lewis beat.

So what?

You actually wanted to see Lennox vs John f*cking Ruiz?

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:58

gilgamesh wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:55

Onamastus wrote: ↑28 Oct 2020, 18:53

God you're retarded.

He dumped the WBA belt for a gimme with Grant.

He dumped the IBF for a gimme rematch with the corpse of Tyson, who he had already beaten to death.

Vitali was a last minute sub for Kirk Johnson. Kirk Johnson! The man who lost to John Ruiz!!

So you're acting as if I don't know what I'm talking about, and you think his fight with Tyson was a rematch?

You clearly weren't following boxing at the time. Lennox Lewis was pursuing a 2003 rematch with Mike Tyson. Hence why they were asking Tyson about it post Etienne.

The fact you don't know what was going on in 2003 is why you have no clue that Bowe and Lewis signed to fight each other in 1994, and that Bowe and HBO tried to put together a fight with him again in 1996.

I was following Boxing as intently as a human being possibly can in this time period. Not in the 90's, but from late 2001 up through not that long ago I was all over everything going on in the sport.