BoxRec

p4p1 wrote: ↑08 Nov 2020, 06:49 I'm sure it's been done before, but who beats Liston if he at or near his best?

Lineal Champions
John L. Sullivan - It's doubtful someone from his era could take on someone as skilled and physical as Liston. It seems pretty clear that outmuscling Liston was not an option so it's unlikely that Sullivan could win.
James J. Corbett - I don't know enough about the guy but again it's hard to imagine someone from that era with that style of fighting beat Liston.
Bob Fitzsimmons - Too small realistically. Gets decimated.
James J. Jeffries - A big strong slugger gets destroyed by Liston.
Marvin Hart - Don't know much about this guy.
Tommy Burns - see Bob Fitzsimons
Jack Johnson - I'm in two minds. On one hand Johnson is one of the greatest heavyweights to ever live. On the other hand he arguably isn't the best heavyweight of his era. Langford one of the greatest fighters ever and Wills may have been but never had the chance to prove they were.
Jess Willard - See his Dempsey fight.
Jack Dempsey - Much like Cus D'Amato said to Tyson about Foreman, I don't think a swarming aggressive style is suicide against Liston.
Gene Tunney - Had a style that was similar to Ali's, focusing on speed rather than power. His only loss was against Greb who is Greb so that loss doesn't mean much at all. I think he could be a live dog over 15 rounds. Although Dempsey caught him pretty, often swarmers do better against guys who employ a lot of speed and movement, while boxer-punchers like Liston often don't do as well.
Max Schmeling - See Joe Louis 2
Jack Sharkey - Likely has the same ending as his Joe Louis fight possible earlier
Primo Carnera - See Baer and Louis fights
Max Baer - I would imagine a destruction. Whether he fought Louis while injured or not and the delay caused the pain killer to wear off. The fight probably goes a similar way whether he fights Louis or Liston.
James J. Braddock -
Joe Louis - I think this is where a lot of people will disagree with me. I see them as being somewhat similar. Good fundamentals, a strong jab and real power. But Louis gives away 10 inches in reach to someone who's jab is probably the most powerful in history. I think he has a punchers chance at best. I think the skills are even but Liston is just too strong.
Ezzard Charles - I have to think it's similar to what I stated for Tunney. Though IIRC Charles is a bit smaller than Tunney but he's probably the better fighter of the two. I gotta think he is a live dog.
"Jersey" Joe Walcott - If an older Louis can beat him, Liston does as well.
Rocky Marciano - Bloodbath. Marciano might be one of the toughest and strongly willed fighters ever but that just means he's getting a prolonged beating.
Floyd Patterson - We know how this one went
Ingemar Johansson - There's a reason why this fight never happened and it wasn't Sonny.
Muhammad Ali - Same result more or less
Joe Frazier - I imagine an absolute annihilation
George Foreman - I genuinely don't believe George believes he could have beaten Sonny. To be a fly on the wall in their sparring session. Would love more info on those if its available. Old version may be smarter and more wiley but His lack of speed would see him get a beating.
Leon Spinks - Total Destruction
Larry Holmes - I think he has an excellent chance against Liston. Probably better than anyone who isn't Ali. His jab, chin and skills would see him do pretty well I think.
Michael Spinks - If he was intimidated by Tyson he wouldn't have been able to make the ring walk against Sonny.
Mike Tyson - Massacre, the reach, the jab, the strength and power on top of intimidation and real toughness.
James "Buster" Douglas - This is going to be unpopular but I give the version of Buster that showed up against Tyson a chance against anyone. His reach is more or less the same as Liston's, his jab that night was perfect. He looked quick and powerful.
Evander Holyfield - ATG, tough, great skills but I just see him getting a hiding. His toughness and heart will keep him around for a sustained beating.
Riddick Bowe - No idea, he's something of an enigma to me. He's big and he's good or even great. But I'm not sure that's enough against Liston.
Michael Moorer - Hiding.
Shannon Briggs - Hiding
Lennox Lewis - Arguably the last truely great heavyweight. Hes taller than Sonny and for the first time in Sonny's career he would be facing someone with the same reach as he had. KO's against less than great opPosition do not bode well for him though. Yes he was unmotivated and it showed and yes he won rematches in emphatic fashion. But it does show that his chin was the one thing about him that wasn't great. Liston will hit him at some point and I don't know if he could just shake it off.
Hasim Rahman - Hiding
Wladimir Klitschko - Great, powerful big man. In the end too chinny and would be KTFO.
Tyson Fury - I don't see him winning. He could use his size to make it more difficult for Liston that we would expect. But I doubt he could actually be effective at anything else. He looks slow compared to the footage of Liston. I know the footage is old but I still think there's relevance there. Liston's ace in the pocket against these huge heavyweights compared to most of his contemporaries are his 84 inch reach. It doesn't matter that he is giving away 8 or so inches in height. If Wilder can catch Fury with his total lack of boxing skill the vastly superior Liston would knock him out after outboxing him all night.

Non-Lineal Champions
Sam Langford - Conventional wisdom says to me he is just too small. A great reach for his height but he is still giving away 10 inches.
Harry Wills - I just don't know much about this guy other than he may have been the best HW in the world at one stage.
Vitali Klitschko - He's big, he's strong he has a reach disadvantage. He is as tough as probably anyone, he has shown a great chin. That chin probably means he is in for one hell of a beating.

In the end despite his relatively low all time rating compared to some of the guys mentioned. I think the only guy who beats him clearly and consistently is Ali. Holmes I think has a good chance. while Tunney and Charles' movement and style could make them live dogs.

Liston seems like such as enigma in a lot ways. His skills and physical assets mean that he should be right there at the top with Louis and co. He was just unlucky to be there when Ali was hitting his prime. Of his 4 losses, 1 came in his 8th fight against a guy with over 25 who was on a decent run. Liston's jaw was broken early in the fight. 2 against Ali, that means nothing. His final loss was when he was at least 40. Politics ensured that he never got another shot at the title during Ali's exile.

So what do you guys agree with or disagree with? Are there any other guys you think could have beaten him?

littlepug wrote: ↑08 Nov 2020, 09:12 Pointless pitting fighters from vastly different eras against each other, especially heavyweights as they have always been a physically evolving division, different eras have differences in training techniques, boxing skills, length of fights, tolerances by referees, medicine, nutrition, and social, financial and political landscapes which all play a part in shaping a fighter.So that stuff aside where do you have the fight? back in time to the earliest fighters era or in the future in the most recent fighters era ? Or to make it fair are we gonna have let’s say Liston born in Dempseys time or perhaps Dempsey born in Listons time ? Either way a different fighter would be produced. It’s daft.

littlepug wrote: ↑08 Nov 2020, 09:12 Pointless pitting fighters from vastly different eras against each other, especially heavyweights as they have always been a physically evolving division, different eras have differences in training techniques, boxing skills, length of fights, tolerances by referees, medicine, nutrition, and social, financial and political landscapes which all play a part in shaping a fighter.So that stuff aside where do you have the fight? back in time to the earliest fighters era or in the future in the most recent fighters era ? Or to make it fair are we gonna have let’s say Liston born in Dempsey's time or perhaps Dempsey born in Liston's time ? Either way a different fighter would be produced. It’s daft.

littlepug wrote: ↑08 Nov 2020, 09:12 Pointless pitting fighters from vastly different eras against each other, especially heavyweights as they have always been a physically evolving division, different eras have differences in training techniques, boxing skills, length of fights, tolerances by referees, medicine, nutrition, and social, financial and political landscapes which all play a part in shaping a fighter.So that stuff aside where do you have the fight? back in time to the earliest fighters era or in the future in the most recent fighters era ? Or to make it fair are we gonna have let’s say Liston born in Dempseys time or perhaps Dempsey born in Listons time ? Either way a different fighter would be produced. It’s daft.

littlepug wrote: ↑08 Nov 2020, 09:12 Pointless pitting fighters from vastly different eras against each other, especially heavyweights as they have always been a physically evolving division, different eras have differences in training techniques, boxing skills, length of fights, tolerances by referees, medicine, nutrition, and social, financial and political landscapes which all play a part in shaping a fighter.So that stuff aside where do you have the fight? back in time to the earliest fighters era or in the future in the most recent fighters era ? Or to make it fair are we gonna have let’s say Liston born in Dempseys time or perhaps Dempsey born in Listons time ? Either way a different fighter would be produced. It’s daft.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑08 Nov 2020, 18:52 Find Sonny to be rather overrated here tbh, some of this stuff about him facilely smashing up basically any other hw great that ever lived is funny

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Nov 2020, 14:29 The age thing has been long debunked.
Liston would have beaten the majority of heavyweight champions.
He lost to Ali and beat Patterson.

More often than not, would have lost to Johnson, Louis, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Holyfield, and Lewis

Tyson would have been a pick 'em.

Would have won more often than not against Jeffries, Dempsey, Tunney, Charles, Walcott, Marciano, and Norton. Probably would have beat Langford, Jeannette, and McVey the majority of the time.

Hard to imagine him losing to anyone else.

p4p1 wrote: ↑08 Nov 2020, 09:46 .I think that Foreman was able to be so successful in the 90s while in his 40's and Holyfield was able to do the same thing a decade later while in his 40's shows that boxing or at least heavyweight boxing hasn't evolved or improved like other sports have.

p4p1 wrote: ↑08 Nov 2020, 09:46

littlepug wrote: ↑08 Nov 2020, 09:12 Pointless pitting fighters from vastly different eras against each other, especially heavyweights as they have always been a physically evolving division, different eras have differences in training techniques, boxing skills, length of fights, tolerances by referees, medicine, nutrition, and social, financial and political landscapes which all play a part in shaping a fighter.So that stuff aside where do you have the fight? back in time to the earliest fighters era or in the future in the most recent fighters era ? Or to make it fair are we gonna have let’s say Liston born in Dempsey's time or perhaps Dempsey born in Liston's time ? Either way a different fighter would be produced. It’s daft.

I think a lot of change happened from say Sullivan's to the maybe latter part of the dempsey era. After that I think most of the techniques and strategies have remained pretty similar. I don't think the Heavyweights now are any better than Heavyweights from era's past. I think that Foreman was able to be so successful in the 90s while in his 40's and Holyfield was able to do the same thing a decade later while in his 40's shows that boxing or at least heavyweight boxing hasn't evolved or improved like other sports have.

My reasons for posting this was it's hard to place Liston if you were rating guys on how they would go against each other. It's hard rating him in general, Marciano may have been champ for longer but does anyone think that Liston wouldn't wipe the floor with him? The same can be said about a lot of HW champions when comparing them to Liston.

If you pit some of the guys from the older era against he current guys you would have to conclude that the size difference would be an important factor. But it's not a factor for Liston, yeah he will give away height and weight but will likely still retain the reach, speed and strength advantage against most guys.

adislav123 wrote: ↑14 Dec 2020, 12:18 how long was sonny's reach for real now?

he defo had freakishly big bear claws of fists.

but for a guy 6 feet and a bit 84'' just seems outlandish.

some say even ali's 79" reach seemed longer others insist on the apish 84 inch. and everything inbetween. quite some discrepancy.
???