He most definitely does, and I'm already looking at you sideways
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 09 Nov 2020, 16:52
by Seamus
Depends who you ask.
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 10 Nov 2020, 09:57
by Ambling Alp II
No. He didn't beat enough fighters that nobody ever heard of.
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 10 Nov 2020, 10:29
by Jaywheel
Clearly your 1st account on here.
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 10 Nov 2020, 13:29
by elmersalsa
Yes he deserves the credit. But, let's not go to overboard on this.
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 10 Nov 2020, 13:34
by Ambling Alp II
Yeah, we would not want to do that. We need to take into consideration the crybaby excuses for his opponents. Plus he didn't have enough fights against total stiffs that he could not possibly have lost to. Only the legends do that. You have to do that to prove that you have "longevity".
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 10 Nov 2020, 15:49
by Onetimeonly
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Nov 2020, 13:34
Yeah, we would not want to do that. We need to take into consideration the crybaby excuses for his opponents. Plus he didn't have enough fights against total stiffs that he could not possibly have lost to. Only the legends do that. You have to do that to prove that you have "longevity".
The great sugar ray Leonard is one of Elmo's favorite fighters, along with Ali, Oscar delahoya and pascual Perez. Mount Rushmore.
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 10 Nov 2020, 15:52
by evrenb
He does from Tyson
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 10 Nov 2020, 15:52
by Caractacus
as a welterweight he should have had a rematch with Thomas Hearns a lot earlier.
should have fought both Pipino Cuevas and Arron Pryor too.
(when they were still young anyway)
should have defended his middeweight title against Juan Domingo Roldan.
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 11 Nov 2020, 15:47
by Ambling Alp II
This is perfect example of Leonard not getting his due. Who else would be criticized for this kind of stuff?
Cuevas? You have to be kidding. When was he supposed to have fought Cuevas?
Hearns moved up in weight class right after Leonard beat him. So Leonard as champion, is supposed to move up in weight and go after a guy who he had just beat?
Aaron Pryor? So Leonard was supposed to move down in weight to fight Aaron Pryor.
He fought and beat the best competition of his era.
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 11 Nov 2020, 18:14
by Tuan_Jim
'It's not enough to beat Marvin Hagler... to prove your greatness you must also beat Juan Roldan'
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 13 Nov 2020, 17:11
by Caractacus
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑11 Nov 2020, 15:47
This is perfect example of Leonard not getting his due. Who else would be criticized for this kind of stuff?
Cuevas? You have to be kidding. When was he supposed to have fought Cuevas?
Hearns moved up in weight class right after Leonard beat him. So Leonard as champion, is supposed to move up in weight and go after a guy who he had just beat?
Aaron Pryor? So Leonard was supposed to move down in weight to fight Aaron Pryor.
He fought and beat the best competition of his era.
They had a choice to fight either Pipino Cuevas or Roberto Duran, they chose Duran.
and no Aaron Pryor was gonna be the bigger man and come up in weight to fight him.
also Ray Leonard's camp was offered to fight Tommy Hearns a lot earlier in his career,
but the offer was declined because they knew he was an up and comer and waiting out for the big bucks when they did meet..
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 13 Nov 2020, 17:16
by Ambling Alp II
Leonard chose Duran. What a wimp.
Obviously he should have fought Pryor who was not a ranked contender at welterweight.
He just didn't fight Hearns soon enough.
And what was Leonard doing all this time? Just fighting Benitez, Duran twice, and Hearns.
Yeah, lets criticize him for that.
btw -Who won the Pryor-Duran fight?
The Pryor-Hearns fight?
The Cuevas-Pryor fight?
The Cuevas-Benitez fight?
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 13 Nov 2020, 22:44
by Nile4000
I think he does, personal life notwithstanding.
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 14 Nov 2020, 13:28
by Caractacus
well I know who won the Cuevas vrs Hearns fight.
and the Duran vrs Cuevas fight.
Pipino Cuevas was of course the WBA welter-weight champion in 1980
when Wilfred Benitiz was the WBO welter-weight champion.
Leonard could have united the belts by fighting Pipino Cuevas,but they thought
he wasn't a big enough draw compared to fighting Duran.
also Leonard was suppose to fight and defend the belt against Roger Stafford in May 1983
(who had fought Pipino Cuevas)
then after that a fight with Aaron Pryor.
but that fight was cancelled when Leonard found out he had a detached retina and then retired.
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 14 Nov 2020, 13:31
by Tony1244
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑11 Nov 2020, 15:47
This is perfect example of Leonard not getting his due. Who else would be criticized for this kind of stuff?
Cuevas? You have to be kidding. When was he supposed to have fought Cuevas?
Hearns moved up in weight class right after Leonard beat him. So Leonard as champion, is supposed to move up in weight and go after a guy who he had just beat?
Aaron Pryor? So Leonard was supposed to move down in weight to fight Aaron Pryor.
He fought and beat the best competition of his era.
Best example I can think of, as to why I Hate the Jr. divisions. If there was no Jr. Welterweight, Pryor would have likely fought Duran and/or Leonard.
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 14 Nov 2020, 13:50
by Caractacus
speaking of jr. welterweights.
I think Leonard should have given Howard Davis jr a chance
Davis was of course after all named the best boxer in the 1976 Olympics.
and was the first boxer from there to be given a long time fight contract with
a major TV network (CBS)
also it would have been nice to see Leonard fight some of the previous welterweight champions
when he was coming up like John H. Stracey or Carlos Palimino, guys like that who were still hanging around.
been sort of like passing the baton.
Also it would have been nice to see Sugar Ray Leonard defend his middleweight and Light-Heavyweight titles he won
at least once each.
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 14 Nov 2020, 14:18
by littlepug
He gets his due and it’s well deserved, unbeaten Benitez,, unbeaten Hearns, Duran who had one avenged loss in 70 odd fights, Hagler who had reigned for best part of a decade and Ray hadn’t fought for years, think we can leave it there!
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 14 Nov 2020, 14:21
by Caractacus
yeah, but do you think he would have been nearly as famous without Angelo Dundee in his corner
and Howard Cossell being his national cheer-leader ?(both who became famous because of their assoctiaion with Muhammad Ali)
just think if he had signed a long term fight contract with CBS instead of ABC in 1977.
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 15 Nov 2020, 07:39
by Ezzard
There has not been a welterweight since who would beat him. By just the eye test, watching and evaluating, then he's the best fighter I've ever seen.
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 15 Nov 2020, 08:24
by Onetimeonly
Caractacus wrote: ↑14 Nov 2020, 14:21
yeah, but do you think he would have been nearly as famous without Angelo Dundee in his corner
and Howard Cossell being his national cheer-leader ?(both who became famous because of their assoctiaion with Muhammad Ali)
just think if he had signed a long term fight contract with CBS instead of ABC in 1977.
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 15 Nov 2020, 09:32
by Syntax Error
It's a weird one.
The answer is obviously yes; all fight fans know how good Leonard was, but conversely, he does seem to get stick for things that other fighters wouldn't get stick for, or sometimes people like to downplay what he achieved by making BS excuses for his opponents in a way they might not for others.
Leonard was shrewd, manipulative and calculating, but that's no bad thing for a golden goose fighter like he was.
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 15 Nov 2020, 13:22
by Ambling Alp II
I think deep down most people know he was very great. But as you say, he gets criticized for things others wouldn't.
If you go back several years, you see that he has been criticized more than any great fighter except for Ali and possibly Tyson. At least now people are getting creative; the TV network? And of course there are lame excuses for his opponents.
Still I think a lot of people that do say he was great don't go far enough. He gets routinely rated below Duran when he was clearly better. He has a rock solid case for being in the Top 10 of all time. He beat 4 different fighters who are the top 50. How many others have done that? Less than 10. Weigh the quality wins/great performances against losses/bad performances. He was clearly one of the very best. If he isn't rated in the Top 10, he isn't getting his due.
Re: Does Sugar Ray Leonard get his due?
Posted: 15 Nov 2020, 23:08
by elmersalsa
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑15 Nov 2020, 13:22
I think deep down most people know he was very great. But as you say, he gets criticized for things others wouldn't.
If you go back several years, you see that he has been criticized more than any great fighter except for Ali and possibly Tyson. At least now people are getting creative; the TV network? And of course there are lame excuses for his opponents.
Still I think a lot of people that do say he was great don't go far enough. He gets routinely rated below Duran when he was clearly better. He has a rock solid case for being in the Top 10 of all time. He beat 4 different fighters who are the top 50. How many others have done that? Less than 10. Weigh the quality wins/great performances against losses/bad performances. He was clearly one of the very best. If he isn't rated in the Top 10, he isn't getting his due.
Career too short and manipulative comebacks does not make him top 10. Great fighter at #18. That's fair enough.
