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Dubois and fighter development
Posted: 30 Nov 2020, 08:30
by magnus
I don’t subscribe to the “if you’re talented enough, and you’ve got a high ranking with an alphabet body, you’re good” approach that seems quite popular at the moment.
DD’s best wins were against Nathan Gorman (barely in the domestic top ten) and Richard Lartey. Kingpin Johnson remains the best boxer he has beaten (in terms of talent, he’s obviously stopped trying to win many years ago).
That’s not ideal preparation for the likes of Joyce, who had a highly successful amateur career (not just as a junior) and who had been in with the likes of Stiverne and Jennings as a pro (I don’t care how shot you think Stiverne is, he’d eat Gorman alive).
The same applies to Anthony Yarde – those barely Euro level fights weren’t sufficient to mould him into a fighter capable of beating Kovalev. Just maybe, with more challenging fights under his belt, he could have won, and not been second best for all of about 30 seconds in that bout.
I have similar concerns around Jack Caterall, anybody think his wins over the last 4-5 years are anywhere near enough to help him gain the skills/experience to get past the winner of Ramirez-Taylor?
I suspect this is all part of a wider problem in boxing, the obsession with being unbeaten and having a statistically pretty record, rather than being matched competitively..
Re: Dubois and fighter development
Posted: 30 Nov 2020, 08:33
by Counter-puncher
magnus wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 08:30
I have similar concerns around Jack Caterall, anybody think his wins over the last 4-5 years are anywhere near enough to help him gain the skills/experience to get past the winner of Ramirez-Taylor?
lol, god no
Re: Dubois and fighter development
Posted: 30 Nov 2020, 08:37
by Fray Bentos
It was a genuine 50/50 fight - hindsight is everything though if I had money on the outcome before the fight it would have gone on Dubois though I didn't think Joyce was this thunderously slow scarecrow - he always had a realistic chance to win this - we now know he has a good chin and stamina - with that booming jab - he has now crashed the scene. He is about 4 fights and 18 months away from challenging Fury - He will be 38, nothing in todays terms for a heavyweight.
Re: Dubois and fighter development
Posted: 30 Nov 2020, 08:39
by Fray Bentos
Dubois can come back of course, he won't be the first heavyweight to lose his '0' and nor will he be the last. Still a good fighter with a lot to offer
Re: Dubois and fighter development
Posted: 30 Nov 2020, 08:48
by Ruthless-RKO
magnus wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 08:30
I don’t subscribe to the “if you’re talented enough, and you’ve got a high ranking with an alphabet body, you’re good” approach that seems quite popular at the moment.
DD’s best wins were against Nathan Gorman (barely in the domestic top ten) and Richard Lartey. Kingpin Johnson remains the best boxer he has beaten (in terms of talent, he’s obviously stopped trying to win many years ago).
That’s not ideal preparation for the likes of Joyce, who had a highly successful amateur career (not just as a junior) and who had been in with the likes of Stiverne and Jennings as a pro (I don’t care how shot you think Stiverne is, he’d eat Gorman alive).
The same applies to Anthony Yarde – those barely Euro level fights weren’t sufficient to mould him into a fighter capable of beating Kovalev. Just maybe, with more challenging fights under his belt, he could have won, and not been second best for all of about 30 seconds in that bout.
I have similar concerns around Jack Caterall, anybody think his wins over the last 4-5 years are anywhere near enough to help him gain the skills/experience to get past the winner of Ramirez-Taylor?
I suspect this is all part of a wider problem in boxing, the obsession with being unbeaten and having a statistically pretty record, rather than being matched competitively..
That's what I say..
Fight knockovers for regonial org belts, like te WBO Euro belt, get a good rating and eventually you'll be mand, but then you're going in there with a world class/elite boxer, without having proper preperation for it.
Jack Catt's gonna be found out the same.
Yarde hardly fought any Brit's.. He fought for the Southern Area belt, then went straight into the WBO's phony belts.
He didn't challenge for the British or Commonwealth belts. or the EBU belt..
Looks like he just fast-tracked himself a world title shot, lost, and now he's starting over..Cus he's NOW challenging for the Comm belt.
Re: Dubois and fighter development
Posted: 30 Nov 2020, 08:48
by Ruthless-RKO
Fray Bentos wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 08:37
It was a genuine 50/50 fight
Maybe if he wasn't down as a huge favourite..
Re: Dubois and fighter development
Posted: 30 Nov 2020, 08:51
by Fray Bentos
Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 08:48
Fray Bentos wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 08:37
It was a genuine 50/50 fight
Maybe if he wasn't down as a huge favourite..
Eh? Who cares about bookies?
It was a 50/50 fight which is why people clamoured for the match to be made...
Re: Dubois and fighter development
Posted: 30 Nov 2020, 08:54
by Ruthless-RKO
Fray Bentos wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 08:51
Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 08:48
Fray Bentos wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 08:37
It was a genuine 50/50 fight
Maybe if he wasn't down as a huge favourite..
Eh? Who cares about bookies?
It was a 50/50 fight which is why people clamoured for the match to be made...
Not just bookies.. I had a lot of people tell me Dub's gonna smash him early or win by stoppage.
I'm just saying, sometimes, people won't have their own opinions..
Re: Dubois and fighter development
Posted: 30 Nov 2020, 08:59
by Fray Bentos
Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 08:54
Fray Bentos wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 08:51
Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 08:48
Maybe if he wasn't down as a huge favourite..
Eh? Who cares about bookies?
It was a 50/50 fight which is why people clamoured for the match to be made...
Not just bookies.. I had a lot of people tell me Dub's gonna smash him early or win by stoppage.
I'm just saying, sometimes, people won't have their own opinions..
Well, like I have said before, people don't seem to have much of a clue about boxing these days.
He wasn't going to 'smash him early' ever - man was an Olympic silver medalist and unbeaten in 11 fights. He has never been shit, what I will say though is that this fight has answered some very pertinent questions and that he is more suited to the pro game of 12 rounds than the amateur game.
Re: Dubois and fighter development
Posted: 30 Nov 2020, 09:21
by dookus
Fray Bentos wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 08:59
Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 08:54
Fray Bentos wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 08:51
Eh? Who cares about bookies?
It was a 50/50 fight which is why people clamoured for the match to be made...
Not just bookies.. I had a lot of people tell me Dub's gonna smash him early or win by stoppage.
I'm just saying, sometimes, people won't have their own opinions..
Well, like I have said before,
people don't seem to have much of a clue about boxing these days.
He wasn't going to 'smash him early' ever - man was an Olympic silver medalist and unbeaten in 11 fights. He has never been shit, what I will say though is that this fight has answered some very pertinent questions and that
he is more suited to the pro game of 12 rounds than the amateur game.
And long may that continue for the health of my bank balance.
I think you make an excellent point in that the fight confirms Joyce has the punch resistance of a concrete bunker, which is an enormous plus in the pro game, whereas it wouldn't be such a factor in the amateurs (ironic as he was an excellent amateur). But we probably knew that already, which makes the pre-fight odds a bit more baffling. We'd never seen Dubois hunt down a
proven skilled, durable, live opponent at European level, and we now know he's not yet able to do so.
Re: Dubois and fighter development
Posted: 30 Nov 2020, 09:24
by TheLeprechaun
Caterall is destined to be a nearly man at world level.
He's developed too much of a relaxed approach and lets rounds go. He hasn't developed any killer instinct at all.
Re: Dubois and fighter development
Posted: 30 Nov 2020, 09:57
by Ruthless-RKO
TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 09:24
Caterall is destined to be a nearly man at world level.
He's developed too much of a relaxed approach and lets rounds go. He hasn't developed any killer instinct at all.
I think he’s a good boxer. No doubt.
But he hasn’t taken risks or prepared for the world level.
Do Frank’s boys ever like challenging for the Euro belt?
He could have fought A few
Re: Dubois and fighter development
Posted: 30 Nov 2020, 10:13
by dookus
TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 09:24
Caterall is destined to be a nearly man at world level.
He's developed too much of a relaxed approach and lets rounds go. He hasn't developed any killer instinct at all.
I agree. First guy he runs into with skills to match his own but proper fire in his belly is going to overwhelm Catterall. His fight with Davies may be one of the worst matches I've ever seen, it was like seeing Nelson again in his prime!