BoxRec

Louis defeated John Henry Lewis and Joe Walcott. But did he avoided any other black fighter?

No he didn't avoided black fighters.

Joe Louis himself wanted to defend the title against LeRoy Haynes, Tiger Jack Fox and Eddie Blunt.
but his promoter Mike Jacobs didn't want him too.
( mainly because the money was with him defending against "White Hopes".

Marchegiano1952 wrote: ↑15 Jan 2021, 12:53 Louis defeated John Henry Lewis and Joe Walcott. But did he avoided any other black fighter?

He was friends with Lewis and gave him a payday. Evidence suggests Walcott won the first fight cleanly. Those were his only two title defenses vs black men. The lack gates in these fights were above average so its wasn't a money thing.

Fighters like Jimmy Bivns and Elmer Ray each obtained the #1 contender status. Neither was given a title shot.

Turkey Thompson (always loved that name) was a top contender who never got a shot either. Louis probably would have beaten these guys, (he did beat Bivins when they were both over the hill) but it would have been nice if they had gotton title shots.

Joe Louis did "box" a lot of Black contenders in his exhibition tours tho in the mid to late 1940's.
Louis pretty much ended Elmer"Violet"Ray's career in their second exhibition.
BTW did they (Boxrec)ever find out when Turkey Thompson passed away ?

Two words: Lem Franklin.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑15 Jan 2021, 13:05 No he didn't avoided black fighters.

My opnion has changed. Louis only fought two black fighters in his 26 title matches, and one of them could not see well, the other likely beat him on points. Someone mentioned Franklin, yes he's one. Elmer Ray and Jimmy Bivins were both rated #1 and neither got a shot. Turkey Thompson is another one, better than some of those who receiver shots. So there are a lot of name here to consider.

I think it was a story of finances and money making. There was no benefits from fighting another black fighter especially back in the 1930s-40s. Joe Louis is without a doubt one of the top heavyweights in boxing history rather he fought black fighters or not.

Joe Louis himself didn't avoid Diddley.
It was his managers and promoters who told him who, what, when and where to fight
( at least up to 1946)

Wasn't Louis in the army when Bivins reached the # 1 contender slot ?

pound per pound wrote: ↑28 Jan 2021, 21:05

gilgamesh wrote: ↑15 Jan 2021, 13:05 No he didn't avoided black fighters.

My opnion has changed. Louis only fought two black fighters in his 26 title matches, and one of them could not see well, the other likely beat him on points. Someone mentioned Franklin, yes he's one. Elmer Ray and Jimmy Bivins were both rated #1 and neither got a shot. Turkey Thompson is another one, better than some of those who receiver shots. So there are a lot of name here to consider.

Indeed. But image is image, and Joe had a strong one.

I seem to remember that he was set to fight one black contender at one point around 1939
but the fight didnt pan out for some reason
and instead he fought Henry Lewis.
( who was also Black of course but not the other fighter)

Lem Franklin was a genuine heavyweight contender for only a few months at best. But all of that ended when he was knocked out by Bob Pastor in the eighth round in early 1942. Including the KO loss to Pastor, Franklin lost eight of his last ten bouts during his career while being stopped in seven of those losses. During the last bout of his career, he was knocked out by Larry Lane. Ten days later, Franklin died of injuries sustained in that bout. In other words, Franklin was not close to being in the class of Harry Wills, who was a top heavyweight contender for about a decade without getting a shot at the title.

- Chuck Johnston

Lem was probably better than several of the Bum of the Month Club. He still should've gotten his shot.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑31 Jan 2021, 20:31 Lem was probably better than several of the Bum of the Month Club. He still should've gotten his shot.

I think he won 17 fights in a row. That's impressive. Worth a title shot vs an active champion like Louis.

who are the black fighters who wouldve deserved a shot at louis's crown the most?


by the way, what's wrong with ROSCOE TOLES 1st fight on his record?

he's born 1914 and had his first fight 1918???

adislav123 wrote: ↑04 Feb 2021, 17:06 by the way, what's wrong with ROSCOE TOLES 1st fight on his record?

he's born 1914 and had his first fight 1918???

Corrected

pound per pound wrote: ↑04 Feb 2021, 16:15

Nile4000 wrote: ↑31 Jan 2021, 20:31 Lem was probably better than several of the Bum of the Month Club. He still should've gotten his shot.

I think he won 17 fights in a row. That's impressive. Worth a title shot vs an active champion like Louis.

It is probable that Lem Franklin started to be thought of as a heavyweight contender when he stopped Abe Simon in the fifth round in Cleveland on October 20, 1941. But Franklin was knocked out by Bob Pastor in eighth round in Cleveland on February 24, 1942, a mere four months after he stopped Simon. That is a very small period of time to be thought of as a heavyweight contender.

- Chuck Johnston

Agreed. It is a stretch to say he deserved a title shot. However, there is no doubt that black heavyweights did get the shaft. Louis defended the title frequently, against opponents of widely different ability. There certainly were several black heavyweights that were more deserving of title shots than several white fighters who did.

It really is too bad. These guys who toiled for many years in the shadows, and could have got their one shot. They could have had always said they had fought Joe Louis. They would be better remembered today. they would have made more $ against Louis in a title shot than their other fights. They would have become bigger names, and maybe made a little more $ in their fights after Louis.

A lot of these black killers mentioned lost to Louis' white "Bums".

I looked up how the black fighters mentioned did against non-black heavyweights who got shot against Louis.

Turkey Thompson - Beat Godoy, was 2-0 vs Gus Dorazio, 0-2 vs Pastor, had a draw with both Simon and Tony Musto.

Jimmy Bivins - Beat Tammy Mauriello, lost to Musto, 1-1 vs Pastor.

Lem franklin lost to Pastor and Dorazio, beat Simon and Musto.

Roscoe Toles - lost to Simon and Pastor. Beat Dorazio, and Harry Thomas. 4-1-3 vs Godoy.

Blunt - lost to Galento and Red Burman. Beat Musto. 1-1 vs Simon. 1-2-1 vs Nathan Mann

Leroy Haynes - lost to Galento, draw with Godoy.

Could not find any fights with either Ray or Fox against a white fighter that Louis defended the title against.
Apologize if I missed any fights; I wen through this pretty quick.

Grand total: The black fighters went 16-15-7 against the non-black fighters that got title shots. That's pretty close.

You can make a reasonable case why any particular black heavyweight never got a title shot at this time. However, it's pretty obvious that black heavyweights were being frozen out.

I think your analysis is correct, as is your conclusion. Unfortunately, Louis’ promoters and management weren’t interested in doing the right thing.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Feb 2021, 21:56 I looked up how the black fighters mentioned did against non-black heavyweights who got shot against Louis.

Turkey Thompson - Beat Godoy, was 2-0 vs Gus Dorazio, 0-2 vs Pastor, had a draw with both Simon and Tony Musto.

Jimmy Bivins - Beat Tammy Mauriello, lost to Musto, 1-1 vs Pastor.

Lem franklin lost to Pastor and Dorazio, beat Simon and Musto.

Roscoe Toles - lost to Simon and Pastor. Beat Dorazio, and Harry Thomas. 4-1-3 vs Godoy.

Blunt - lost to Galento and Red Burman. Beat Musto. 1-1 vs Simon. 1-2-1 vs Nathan Mann

Leroy Haynes - lost to Galento, draw with Godoy.

Could not find any fights with either Ray or Fox against a white fighter that Louis defended the title against.
Apologize if I missed any fights; I wen through this pretty quick.

Grand total: The black fighters went 16-15-7 against the non-black fighters that got title shots. That's pretty close.

You can make a reasonable case why any particular black heavyweight never got a title shot at this time. However, it's pretty obvious that black heavyweights were being frozen out.

Only a month after the U.S. entered World War II on the side of the Allies, Joe Louis volunteered to enlist in the U.S. Army on January 10, 1942, a day after he knocked out Buddy Baer in the first round while retaining his world heavyweight title. After stopping Abe Simon in the sixth round to retain his title again on March 27, 1942, Louis didn't have another meaningful professional bout until he knocked out Billy Conn in the 8th round in another title defense on June 19, 1946. It is safe to say that serving in the U.S. Army during World War II resulted in Louis being essentially inactive as a professional boxer for four years until 1946. That may have been an important factor in Louis having only one title defense against a black fighter until after World War II.

Meanwhile, Jimmy Bivens probably reached his peak as a professional boxer during World War II. It may be that Roscoe Toles and Turkey Thompson did, too. Lem Franklin probably was a meaningful heavyweight contender for about four months before being knocked out by Bob Pastor in the eighth round on February 24, 1942. Despite winning in bouts with Abe Simon, Tony Musto, Buddy Baer, Nathan Mann and Lee Savold, Eddie Blunt was very inconsistent during his career. Leroy Haynes was going downhill as a fighter by the time that Louis won the world heavyweight title in 1937.

- Chuck Johnston

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Feb 2021, 21:56 I looked up how the black fighters mentioned did against non-black heavyweights who got shot against Louis.

Turkey Thompson - Beat Godoy, was 2-0 vs Gus Dorazio, 0-2 vs Pastor, had a draw with both Simon and Tony Musto.

Jimmy Bivins - Beat Tammy Mauriello, lost to Musto, 1-1 vs Pastor.

Lem franklin lost to Pastor and Dorazio, beat Simon and Musto.

Roscoe Toles - lost to Simon and Pastor. Beat Dorazio, and Harry Thomas. 4-1-3 vs Godoy.

Blunt - lost to Galento and Red Burman. Beat Musto. 1-1 vs Simon. 1-2-1 vs Nathan Mann

Leroy Haynes - lost to Galento, draw with Godoy.

Could not find any fights with either Ray or Fox against a white fighter that Louis defended the title against.
Apologize if I missed any fights; I wen through this pretty quick.

Grand total: The black fighters went 16-15-7 against the non-black fighters that got title shots. That's pretty close.

You can make a reasonable case why any particular black heavyweight never got a title shot at this time. However, it's pretty obvious that black heavyweights were being frozen out.

I think it's pretty clear some of the top black fighters would've gotten title shots had they been white. Definitely bias against them.

The other side is, they weren't really better than the guys he fought anyway, they were basically going either way with his opposition, and that includes a lot of the easier opponents Louis fought for some money before joining the army. The only guys I think that really would've added to his resume are Elmer Ray and Bivins, both of who lost to Walcott (though Ray did beat Walcott), and Louis KOed Ray in an exhibition and beat Bivins after he lost the title.

Other than Bivins and Ray I don't think any of those guys would've been in Louis' top 10 wins.

So I'd agree that there's good evidence of racial bias in boxing at that time, but I don't think it's a mark against Louis as a fighter.