BoxRec

After turning professional in 2009 (following the Beijing Olympics) it's fair to say there was pretty big expectations on Saunders, but did we every find out how good he REALLY was?

His 30-1 (14) record sure looks pretty, and being a 2 weight world is impressive. But when we did below the numbers, do we feel he under-achieved and lacked the career defining wins that he probably could, or should, have had? His best wins were what, Ryder, Eubank Jr, Lee, Monroe and Lemieux? Decent wins sure, but he doesn't exactly have that WOW won on there and can't help but feel he never really sought that big win to make his name earlier in his career.

He's 7-1 in world title bouts, but only fought in one unification bout, and was happy to make some horrendously poor defenses (okay some were mandatories but still, Akavov, Coceres and a 2020 version of Martin Murray are hardly wins that prove how good someone was).

It's clear he was talented, he showed that against Canelo, Lee and for 6rounds against Eubank Jr but... is it fair to say we really have no idea how good he ACTUALLY was? His struggles with Eubank, Lee, Monroe, Akavov and Coceres were always put down to bad nights, or fighting to his opponents level, but were they more a sign that he just wasn't as good as people thought?

Maybe it's just me, but it's a shame he didn't spend his late 20's facing the likes of Smith, Jacobs, Dirrell, Plant, Benevidez, Ramirez, Hart, Golovkin, Andrade, Derevyanchenko, Charlo and let us see how good he...actually was...

He's a good example of how nowadays someone can be a 'two weight world champion' and yet still have a very thin record.

In the days before four belts, Saunders vs Lee would have probably been for the European title.

BJS is a fine boxer indeed and reached prob top 5 in the world at middle, but a lot people seemed to make excuses for every close fight he had (there were a lot) and seemed to want to act like the Lemieux fight was all that mattered.

He's had one big fight at world level. His lack of power was always going to be a problem at the highest level so it was probably right to pick his battles carefully. All things considered he has earned remarkably well, is a terrific boxer and were it not for his out of ring persona would be able to retire happy. Because of the things he's said and the pressure that puts on you, given the way things ended on Saturday, I suspect he'll be disappointed with himself for the rest of his life and not be able to convince himself he didn't swallow it.

People will say he's got millions and will be happy. That's bollocks. As soon as you've got just enough money to be comfortable, any more makes little difference, it certainly wouldn't compensate for feeling like you've bottled it on your biggest night.

p.s. not saying he did swallow/bottle, just that I think that is what he will feel, rightly or wrongly (only he'll really know).

He was pretty good at MW - his style would give anyone problems for at least a few rounds.

@ SMW he wasn't even proven as British No.1 and had no business fighting Canelo.

I woulda liked him to fight that midget Russian gangsta (Albanian?) on one of his (many) off nights.
That would've told us a lot.

His boxing skills and gifts are apparent to me. BJS is one of the best pure boxers of his generation. He simply lacks the pop to be confident enough against the top shelf bangers. Hence, the appearance that he has under achieved.

My opinion is that he has achieved what he was capable of, and he managed to cash out (if he chooses) with what will be looked back on as a respectable career, once the fact that he is a puny person fades out of the rear view mirror.

Very good. Olympian at 17, every traditional title, lost to a future hall of fame. I agree with Jimmy though, middle.

It’s a paper thin era where fighters don’t, kind of, fight.

In the massive pile on thats inevitably taken place, I don’t think anyone has mentioned how great his chin is - that uppercut he took from Alvarez early on that would’ve knocked out a lot of fighters I think.
And he must’ve realised he was badly outgunned early on, but he came back from a bad second and third round, so he was showing heart there before his face was smashed.

coghaugen11 wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 11:56 It’s a paper thin era where fighters don’t, kind of, fight.

Canelo and GGG are paper thin?

He is world class but not elite.

On re-watching the fight, if he'd have gone against his instincts and stood his ground and started swinging in that minute or so after the uppercut landed everything would be different for him going forward. He'd have been lauded. That he got hurt, couldn't see out of an eye and by Canelo's reaction must have realised he was screwed and he chose to continue to run rather than Hail Mary is a shame IMO.

Very good boxer, think he was only 18 when he fought at Beijing Olympics, his pro career right up until the World title fight with Lee was very respectable, took a few 0's, Ryder, Spike, Eubank, Blandamura, Fletcher, even the likes of Blackwell, Hall and Pryce were solid

After Lee though....

J-C wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 11:41 He's a good example of how nowadays someone can be a 'two weight world champion' and yet still have a very thin record.

In the days before four belts, Saunders vs Lee would have probably been for the European title.

This is right, he was lucky to win 1 world title let alone 2. In previous era's he wouldn't have got near a world title.
He's made good money boxing basically B and C grade fighters. The one time he faced an A grade fighter he was hopelessly overpowered and got his face broken.

He's not unique in that of course you can look at another paperweight double world champion like Andrade who has done similar. This is the modern way sadly.

Am I losing the plot or is someone getting absolutely vilified for losing to Canelo?

Monzon83 wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 12:12

J-C wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 11:41 He's a good example of how nowadays someone can be a 'two weight world champion' and yet still have a very thin record.

In the days before four belts, Saunders vs Lee would have probably been for the European title.

This is right, he was lucky to win 1 world title let alone 2. In previous era's he wouldn't have got near a world title.
He's made good money boxing basically B and C grade fighters. The one time he faced an A grade fighter he was hopelessly overpowered and got his face broken.

He's not unique in that of course you can look at another paperweight double world champion like Andrade who has done similar. This is the modern way sadly.

I must have been watching a different fight (and I had it 6-2 Canelo going into the 9th). BJS was very competitive for the entirety of the fight I was watching. He had won 5 and 7, and he was looking good in 8 when he was caught with a devastating shot that would have ended the fight there and then with most fighters.

It is true that he could have challenged himself more during his career, but professional boxing is a business, and BJS has successfully navigated his career to economic security.

The profession’s circumstances dictate the pragmatic path to success.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 12:19 Am I losing the plot or is someone getting absolutely vilified for losing to Canelo?

Seems to be the case. Happened to Callum Smith too to a lesser extent.

Billy’s an excellent fighter at middle and very good fighter at super middle and being beat by, in most people’s opinions, the P4P number 1 doesn’t change that.

maverick23 wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 12:28

mickey1975 wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 12:19 Am I losing the plot or is someone getting absolutely vilified for losing to Canelo?

Seems to be the case. Happened to Callum Smith too to a lesser extent.

Billy’s an excellent fighter at middle and very good fighter at super middle and being beat by, in most people’s opinions, the P4P number 1 doesn’t change that.

If you're seeing that as putting the boot in and vilifying the guy then either you didn't read what I was asking, or I really messed up how I was asking it.

Being beaten by the P4P number shows he's not not the P4P #1 but we never really found out how good he was as his overall competition simple wasn't close to world class. There's a few good wins in there, sure (mostly at Middleweight), but there's no A level win there. IF we base how good he is on his PERFORMANCES then I'm not sure we can really call him an excellent fighter. He was skilled, but never showed that against top competition. Something that DOES need to be held against a guy who was at world level for more than 5 years.

His route to a world title, which involved wins over Sullivan, Eubank and Ryder were really good wins at the time that have aged really well. His reigns as a world champion however were, well, less than stellar. Likewise his title win vs Andy Lee a good result (in a very close fight).

If an American champion had notched defenses against a 2020 Martin Murray, had struggled against Artur Akavov, and had beaten Isufi and Coceres we wouldn't be talking about him being an excellent fighter. None of these points have ANYTHING to do with losing to Canelo. In fact I think the bout with Canelo showed he SHOULD have been beating better competition through his career. That performance showed he could have hung with the best guys at 160 and 168 and didn't need to face the Murray's and Monroe's.

Can't help but feel he could, and should, have faced better competition so we knew how good he really was. There's a good chance he'd have done a number on Andrade, Hart and Charlo, but we never saw those bouts.

As for Callum Smith, again similar critcism is valid, it's not about him losing to a top fighter, it's about what he did prior to that loss. Smith winning the WBSS should have been a platform to huge fights instead he got N'Dam and a controversial win over Ryder. He SHOULD have done much more. He should have fought Saunders, or Jacobs, or any of the top fighters, not a washed N'Dam.

Again if an American fighter had beaten Soglund, Holzken, Groves, N;Dam and Ryder no one would be cheerleading them as anything other than a title holder in need of a big win (ala Andrade, Crawford at 147, Plant or Haney)

he's being vilified because he's a villain + the whole quitting eye hypocrisy, not cuz ppl think he's a sh!t boxer

Excellent post.

He was a good boxer; and good being good enough today, if you have the right promoter, to get to be world title belt holder.

Unfortunately for him. Vast majority of those who knew of him before the Canelo fight, knew of him for his not too nice antics.

Those that had only heard of him since the Canelo fight will simply remember Tyson Furys mate who quit after being hit once.

But best of luck to him; he has earned well.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 12:06

coghaugen11 wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 11:56 It’s a paper thin era where fighters don’t, kind of, fight.

Canelo and GGG are paper thin?

You’ve just answered your own question.

Never cease to amaze me how dense you M75

J-C wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 11:41 He's a good example of how nowadays someone can be a 'two weight world champion' and yet still have a very thin record.

In the days before four belts, Saunders vs Lee would have probably been for the European title.

This. Before Canelo he was largely somebody fighting weak opponents everybody knew he could easily beat, almost no top 10 opposition in his weight classes. Before the Canelo fight he was a product of the 4-7 paper title belts per division system we have now. A decent boxer who, until Canelo, was content to fight nobodies in front of the locals. Reminds me of a lot of the German beltholders in the 1990-2010 era

Similar to Smith, in this day and age a worthy belt holder but short of elite class