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Jimmy Ellis vs Eddie Machen
Posted: 22 Jul 2021, 23:30
by Scypion
How about late 60's Ellis vs late 50's Machen? Who wins?
Re: Jimmy Ellis vs Eddie Machen
Posted: 23 Jul 2021, 02:16
by DrDuke
Ellis by disputable dec.
Re: Jimmy Ellis vs Eddie Machen
Posted: 23 Jul 2021, 05:33
by scorpio83
Ellis would get the better of Machen with better jabs and combinations to take a 15 round decision in a close fight while Machen would put up a fight to Ellis along the way.
Re: Jimmy Ellis vs Eddie Machen
Posted: 23 Jul 2021, 15:34
by Scypion
DrDuke wrote: ↑23 Jul 2021, 02:16
Ellis by disputable dec.
I take it that is referring to Ellis' controversial decision in the Patterson fight. I agree that Floyd should have gotten the decision, but it was a tough fight for both boxers. Patterson fought a great fight.
Floyd Patterson was a great fighter, IMO, but Ellis was not that far behind him on an all time list as far as I am concerned. Patterson was brought along better, at least at first. Ellis had a better chin than Floyd, but Patterson was faster and had better skills, I think. Jimmy Ellis was pretty fast himself. Only Ali and Patterson were faster heavyweights during Jimmy's prime years.
Re: Jimmy Ellis vs Eddie Machen
Posted: 23 Jul 2021, 17:03
by DrDuke
Scypion wrote: ↑23 Jul 2021, 15:34
DrDuke wrote: ↑23 Jul 2021, 02:16
Ellis by disputable dec.
I take it that is referring to Ellis' controversial decision in the Patterson fight. I agree that Floyd should have gotten the decision, but it was a tough fight for both boxers. Patterson fought a great fight.
Floyd Patterson was a great fighter, IMO, but Ellis was not that far behind him on an all time list as far as I am concerned. Patterson was brought along better, at least at first. Ellis had a better chin than Floyd, but Patterson was faster and had better skills, I think. Jimmy Ellis was pretty fast himself. Only Ali and Patterson were faster heavyweights during Jimmy's prime years.
Quarry also won Ellis by many opinions.
Re: Jimmy Ellis vs Eddie Machen
Posted: 23 Jul 2021, 20:49
by Scypion
I agree that the Ellis-Patterson fight was a bad decision. Not so sure about the Quarry fight.
I kind of hated Jimmy Ellis for years due to the Patterson fight. I was a big Patterson fan. Then I read someplace that Jimmy was really a nice guy. He was a family man who, along with his wife, even sang in a church choir. I looked over his record and could see that he was really a pretty good fighter despite not being handled very well early in his career.
He would have been better off starting off his pro career as a light heavyweight and not being rushed along being put against contenders soon after turning pro fighting guys like Hurricane Carter, Holly Mims (twice), Don Fullmer, Henry Hank, and George Benton as a skinny middleweight.
Ellis also missed out in the 1960 Olympic Games due to a very good amateur, Wilbert McClure, beating Jimmy in a close decision in the finals of the Olympic Trials in his division. McClure, who was the top amateur middle division boxer at the time went on to win a gold medal in the 1960 Olympics.
Re: Jimmy Ellis vs Eddie Machen
Posted: 24 Jul 2021, 22:51
by Scypion
Scypion wrote: ↑23 Jul 2021, 20:49
I agree that the Ellis-Patterson fight was a bad decision. Not so sure about the Quarry fight.
I kind of hated Jimmy Ellis for years due to the Patterson fight. I was a big Patterson fan. Then I read someplace that Jimmy was really a nice guy. He was a family man who, along with his wife, even sang in a church choir. I looked over his record and could see that he was really a pretty good fighter despite not being handled very well early in his career.
He would have been better off starting off his pro career as a light heavyweight and not being rushed along being put against contenders soon after turning pro fighting guys like Hurricane Carter, Holly Mims (twice), Don Fullmer, Henry Hank, and George Benton as a skinny middleweight.
Ellis also missed out in the 1960 Olympic Games due to a very good amateur, Wilbert McClure, beating Jimmy in a close decision in the finals of the Olympic Trials in his division. McClure, who was the top amateur middle division boxer at the time went on to win a gold medal in the 1960 Olympics.
More on Wilbert McClure's amateur accomplishments:
Wilbert McClure was named outstanding amateur boxer in 1959. There was another amateur boxer around that year named Cassius Clay.
McClure was the National AAU Champion in the 156 lb. division in both 1959 and 1960.
He won the Pan American games in 1959.
He won the Chicago Golden Gloves Tournament of Champions in the 160 lb. division in 1958 and 1959.
He won the Inter-city Golden Gloves Tournament in 1959.
Won a Diamond Belt in 1958.
And of course, McClure won the Olympic Trials and an Olympic Gold Medal in 1960 in the light middleweight division.
So, more bad luck for Jimmy Ellis having a guy like McClure around in his division the same time as his Olympic year. I believe that there is a good chance that Jimmy would have won the Olympic Gold if McClure was not around the same time.
Also, Ellis' prime years were around about the worst time to be a heavyweight with guys like Frazier, Ali, Foreman, Quarry, Lyle, Shavers, etc.
Re: Jimmy Ellis vs Eddie Machen
Posted: 25 Jul 2021, 22:27
by Scypion
Despite missing out at a chance for the gold in the 1960 Olympic Games, Jimmy Ellis was one of the top middle division amateur boxers in 1960 and 1961. Ellis won the 1960 Chicago Inter-City Golden Gloves and the 1961 Chicago Golden Gloves Tournament of Champions. His overall amateur record is listed as 59 wins and 7 losses. That includes a win over a guy named Cassius Clay, AKA Muhammad Ali.
Re: Jimmy Ellis vs Eddie Machen
Posted: 27 Jul 2021, 04:45
by Scypion
Eddie Machen was very tough, especially during the 50's right up to his fight with Ingemar Johansson. He had a good chin and even went 12 rounds against Sonny Liston. He was stopped 3 times. Johansson was the first time as he was surprised by Ingemar's big right, as was Patterson later. Later he was stopped by Frazier. No surprise there. Eddie was stopped in his last fight by Boone Kirkman when he was past his prime.
I think he may have given Patterson a tough fight if they fought prior to his fight with Johansson. What may have made the difference in a fight between Ellis and Machen was Ellis' speed. With both fighters having good chins, I believe that a Ellis-Machen bout would probably go the distance.