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A story in the Feb. 9 Chicago Tribune examines Johnson's 1913 Mann Act trial. Quotes from the transcript have Johnson saying he knew he was going to win the Ketchel bout before he went in. The judge asked if this simply meant that Johnson was confident. Prosecutor says "No, not at all." Johnson's attorney says, "He wants to show that the fight was crooked." Then Johnson himself says, "They are all crooked."
Check http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports for the Michael Hirsley story.

So,does that mean Stanley Ketchel let Jack Johnson beat the cr*[ out of him for 12 rounds and accidently threw a big right that caught Johnson,then allowed himself to be punched right in the puss that knocked out his own front teeth?
Im getting to think someone was a bit dillusional.

This testimony just adds to the controversy. Rumors surrounded the Johnson-Ketchel match, and still do. But those rumors have to stand up against the filmed record. We all saw Ketchel get legitimately cold-cocked in rd. 12. Was the fight legit? Did Ketchel stray from the script and pay for it? Was Jack just lying on the witness stand in 1913 or just having a laugh at us all? He did also testify that he never beat Belle Schreiber, and never gave her money with the intention of setting her up in a "sporting house". I just think Jack did and said whatever the hell he wanted on impulse, and he still has us guessing today. He's still flashing us that golden smile and laughing it up.

crooked nose wrote:A story in the Feb. 9 Chicago Tribune examines Johnson's 1913 Mann Act trial. Quotes from the transcript have Johnson saying he knew he was going to win the Ketchel bout before he went in. The judge asked if this simply meant that Johnson was confident. Prosecutor says "No, not at all." Johnson's attorney says, "He wants to show that the fight was crooked." Then Johnson himself says, "They are all crooked."
Check http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports for the Michael Hirsley story.

I believe Johnson said the Ketchel fight was crooked because Ketchel doublecrossed him. In those days fightfilms were big business, but fighters and promotors soon found out that a lot more people were willing to pay to pay to watch fightfilms in theaters if they got their money worth, meaning they wouldn't pay hard earned money to see a one round blowout. A long fight, preferably ending with a KO was the best buy as far as the public was concerned.
Johnson and Ketchel were well aware of this and agreed go easy for the first half of the fight or so before going to work on each other for real. When Ketchel went for broke earlier than was the deal, prbably hoping to steal the championship with the element of surprise while Johnson was still in "sparringmode", it pissed Johnson off and he got up and KO'd him.
So when Johnson said "they're all crooked" he most likely meant that no one involved in a fight could be trusted.
Ketchel was a much more popular fighter than Johnson and would generate a lot more money. Everyone except Johnson would stand to earn more money with Ketchel as champ. The fight wasn't fixed, just a little shady.

Alister

I think that's the case - this fight (and others of the era) were semi-fixed. That is, fighters might agree to stage an exhibition without letting the paying public in on it. I think a lot of ND fights were in that category. Or, as with the Johnson-Ketchel bout, fighters stretched it out as much as possible. I believe Ketchel tried to be a wise guy, but as soon as he got aggressive with Johnson, Stanley's dentist earned a nice payday.

I think Johnson said anything he could to help his legacy. He was horribly overratted and would not stand a chance in almost any other era.

yeah, I guess you'r right,obviously Stanley Ketchel was obviously a fighter who had no pride in himself and should have taken the pounding and re arranging of his features, that Jack Johnson was administering to him until,the last round,or whenever Johnson decided the fight should be over of course.
You think Ketchel was a sado mascist or something?maybe he thought he had it coming to him because of the sins of slavery,and he wanted to pay for it the hard way.
or maybe he just did it for the money.

anyone else analyze that film frame by frame?
Looks to me Ketchel was more or less knocked out mainly by a devastasting right elbow from Johnson.
or at least thats what dd the major damage.
I never heard of anyone being punched in the mouth so hard that the teeth having been imbedded in the glove from the force of the punch.more likely Ketchel's teeth were already knocked loose by an elbow and then Johnson punched him in the mouth and the teeth stuck into the glove.
Watch the film footage and see what you think.

Keep in mind it was a Heavyweight hitting a Middleweight. Not so freakish when you take it into that context. Imagine Sonny Liston or Mike Tyson having full crack at even a tough Middle like, say, Marvin Hagler or Bernard Hopkins. Goodnight.

In Johnson's extremely interesting autobiography,he says he was surprised by Ketchel's lack of defense. It's evident in the film. Ketchel was a man's man,kept coming in taking a bad beating. He was down and bleeding. Johnson could hit him whenever he wanted. If you're going to throw a fight you wouldn't put in that kind of effort like Ketchel did that night. After the fight Willie Ketchum,Ketchel's manager,worried about Stanley's mental and physical well being.

Johnson was using his usual dirty fight tatics like using his gloves to hold Ketchels and pin his elbows behind him so Ketchel couldnt punch and then Johnson hitting him.What type of defense against that unless you are naturally taller and huge
like Jess Willard who one could not get any leverage to do that?

A little facile Decagon.

Brutu wrote:Johnson was using his usual dirty fight tatics like using his gloves to hold Ketchels and pin his elbows behind him so Ketchel couldnt punch and then Johnson hitting him.What type of defense against that unless you are naturally taller and huge
like Jess Willard who one could not get any leverage to do that?

Johnson used those tactics against Burns also. but in those days fighting was pretty dirty. Refs didn't disqualify many fighters for what would be today as illegal. How about Jim Flynn head butting Johnson in their title match. Standing over an opponent,not going to a neutral corner. Lacing fighters with your gloves a la Kid Lewis. Wolgast fouling Joe Rivers and then falling on top of him to win.

Johnson didn't need to use those tactics against Ketchel to win,but he wanted to humiliate him like he wanted to humiliate Jeffries. He was unjustified doing that. Johnson certainly didn't want to bridge the gap of civil rights. But instead of being angry or defiant(which probably would have gotten him shot) he thumbed his nose at everyone with that golden grin. Still I often wonder how he made through life without getting lynched. He was no Joe Louis

I don't believe the fight was crooked, or had any kind of deal before hand, despite what 'historians' like Bert Sugar and others wish to say. From bell to bell, Ketchell was knocked around like a rag doll, and it was almost as humorous as the pre-fight photos of Ketchell in layers and layers of clothes and coats so he could look almost as big as Johnson.

Ketchell was repeatedly knocked down, and if you watch the whole fight film, one side of Ketchell's face was horribly bruised, and the should be implication enough that the fight was not fixed.

I believe the true story is that Johnson felt that this middleweight couldn't or wouldn't give him any problems, he was just too small and he was too wild and sloppy to be effective against such a superb tactician like Johnson...and it was that very same attitude, that got Johnson caught in the 12th and knocked down for a two count.

Johnson was irate that such a thing could have possibly occured, and went for what I call a flying shoulder tackle, more so than a punch, and knocked Ketchell out cold, snapping off six of his teeth in the process.

Johnson played too many games with Ketchell, tried to torture him, humiliate him, just like he done to Burns and Jefferies before...it wasn't no fix, Johnson was just that kind of guy, to go out of his way to stretch an opponent, make them weak, make them feel helpless, then knock them out, after he talked and laughed at them to death.

Fireman Jim Flynn was trying to butt Johnson because Johnson was holding Flynns elbows behind him and hit him at Johnson's convience too.
Also you really cant believe a whole lot of Jack Johnson's autobiography.
It was probably written mostly by a ghost writer pretending he was Johnson and say a lot of controversial and outlandish things just so can sell more copies.
No doubt Jack Johnson was the best heavyweight at the time ,but I could never understand why the revisionist from the 1960's up til recent, always try to dis his white oppontents.How can you really tell how good he was if he just fought a bunch of clowns?

Brutu wrote:Fireman Jim Flynn was trying to butt Johnson because Johnson was holding Flynns elbows behind him and hit him at Johnson's convience too.
Also you really cant believe a whole lot of Jack Johnson's autobiography.
It was probably written mostly by a ghost writer pretending he was Johnson and say a lot of controversial and outlandish things just so can sell more copies.
No doubt Jack Johnson was the best heavyweight at the time ,but I could never understand why the revisionist from the 1960's up til recent, always try to dis his white oppontents.How can you really tell how good he was if he just fought a bunch of clowns?

Jack Johnson was totally consumed by Jack Johnson. The things that I found interesting in his autobiography was his non boxing topics:nutrition,his perspectives on civilazation,and his experiences in prison. His take on woman hood is interesting because he perceives them as delicate creatures to be protected yet everyone of his wives received little affection from him. Yet his views on diet are very inciteful. He should have taken his advice before the Willard fight. It is said he set records for eating fried chicken during his training. As far as an ambassador for world peace,Joe Louis was the man who exemplified how men should treat each other.

While I consider Jack Johnson to be one of the ATG's, and am one of the few critics these days who believe Johnson is one of maybe three or four heavyweights who could have beaten a prime Muhammad Ali, I get less and less respectful of what kind of man Jack Johnson really was in his life outside the ring.

I am convinced that maybe the whites of those times, though racist to begin with, probably had a good reason to treat Johnson as they did. Here was a man who in his personal life abused women of both white and black heritage, rebelled against religions, who broke the law many a time, and his attitude was that he was better than anyone, and he was the constant braggart and self righteous ass.

This man didn't care for nobody but himself, and it was an attitude he carried with him until his death, as he called Joe Louis a green horn and a robot and every time Louis fought, Johnson predicted that he would lose by a knockout...only because he wanted to be the only black heavyweight champion in history. Hell, he even tried to fight Joe Louis, but was told he wasn't wanted.

As Jack Blackburn put it, "That cat (Johnson) never gave anybody any credit...he'd want no part of Chappie (Louis)."

As for his detailed descriptions on diet and the like, I consider Jim Jeffries, to be the first real well conditioned athlete that incorporated dieting into his excercise regimen, as he would eat maybe one meal a day, and the rest be water. Jeffries once was quoted that "People dig their graves with their mouths," which was a great observation of how unfit people in America were back then.

Anyone seen a copy of Jack Johnson's autobiography that he wrote while still incarcerated at Levenworth Federal Prison in Kansas ca. 1920?
It was refered to in UNBELEAVABLE BLACKNESS.
I feel thats the document to study,not his hyped up and over seasonalized
published autobiography,probably writen with help from ghost writers interested in selling copies.

yeah no doubt about it Jack Johnson was the Bill OReily of his day.
An Ego-maniac with a capital EGO.

I hink the teeth in the glove is a myth. Doesn't he look at the wrong glove to the one that KO'd Ketchel?

Lots of people got a way with misdemeanours and vioent crime. Johnson didn't. Maybe he was as bad as some say, maybe he wasn't, but he's a top 3 HW IMO.

To be fair,I had heard that maybe Ketchel was kind of an anal retentive.
Its posibble they (ketchel's camp)may have tried to trick Johnson into taking it easy,then
trying to knock him out,but if Johnson agreed too before the fight,he may have been (rightly) suspicious knew they were up to something and canceled the deal when the bell rang.