BoxRec

Thought this would be fun. Just picking two guys from different eras and picking who was better. Who do you rate higher (at heavyweight) between Max Schmeling and Floyd Patterson and why?

Patterson for me.

Schmeling's biggest win is prime Joe Louis covers every Patterson's win, while Patterson's wins over ageing, but credible Moore and prime Johansson cover the remaining wins of Schmeling.

Schmeling wasn't consistent during his prime, Patterson was.

Schmeling wasn't the man of his era, Patterson was. That's the most decisive factor with all circumstances.

Patterson rates higher for me easily.

^^This.

Plus he won gold at the Olympics and the Golden Gloves in 1952. That has got to mean something. Case closed.

The Executive Committee has ruled since Patterson's was not a heavyweight when he won the Gold Medal, the Gold Medal doesn't count when comparing the two at heavyweight. Therefore the case is indeed still open.

The Executive Committee has also ruled that for future cases, only elmersalsa can say "case closed".

Schmeling has the single biggest win of the two. Patterson is a more consistent performer, and when I imagine the style matchup head to head I have to favor Patterson.

I'd give it to Patterson, but not by an overwhelming margin. It probably would've been a good fight between the two.

DrDuke wrote: ↑07 Dec 2021, 15:09 Schmeling's biggest win is prime Joe Louis covers every Patterson's win, while Patterson's wins over ageing, but credible Moore and prime Johansson cover the remaining wins of Schmeling.

Schmeling wasn't consistent during his prime, Patterson was.

Schmeling wasn't the man of his era, Patterson was. That's the most decisive factor with all circumstances.

Patterson rates higher for me easily.

Would Patterson be the man of his era if he was around in Joe Louis' day? No.

Patterson wasn't the man of his era anyway. Sonny Liston was.

Would Schmeling be the man if he was around in Patterson's day? Not if he fought Sonny Liston. But against Patterson's soft opposition? This is a man who squashed Joe Louis!

Schmeling would knock Patterson's brains out.

Jaywheel wrote: ↑08 Dec 2021, 12:15 ^^This.

Plus he won gold at the Olympics and the Golden Gloves in 1952. That has got to mean something. Case closed.

Case open: two words: Sonny Liston.

Patterson was literally never 'the man'. Liston closed that case when Patterson finally manned up and fought him -- for all two minutes!

LOL at Golden Gloves 1952 being proof you're superior to a man who KOd Joe Louis. That must have been some competition!

Billy Tully wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 07:17

DrDuke wrote: ↑07 Dec 2021, 15:09 Schmeling's biggest win is prime Joe Louis covers every Patterson's win, while Patterson's wins over ageing, but credible Moore and prime Johansson cover the remaining wins of Schmeling.

Schmeling wasn't consistent during his prime, Patterson was.

Schmeling wasn't the man of his era, Patterson was. That's the most decisive factor with all circumstances.

Patterson rates higher for me easily.

Would Patterson be the man of his era if he was around in Joe Louis' day? No.

Patterson wasn't the man of his era anyway. Sonny Liston was.

Would Schmeling be the man if he was around in Patterson's day? Not if he fought Sonny Liston. But against Patterson's soft opposition? This is a man who squashed Joe Louis!

Schmeling would knock Patterson's brains out.

Liston became #1 contender by the 60s. Patterson had already scored a decent championship run by that moment. Patterson was the man of his era, he wasn't able to hold that title only against Liston, so he passed the torch. He lost to Ingo too, but he returned a favor twice.

Schmeling wasn't the man of his era not only because of Louis. His loss to Sharkey can be disputable, but he was simply crushed by Baer.

Patterson notoriously didn't fight his top challengers, it was left to Liston to wrecking ball his way through Williams, Folley, Machen, Valdez et al.

Patterson was 'the man' in name only. Three years of his reign were spent settling superiority between him and Ingo -- Sonny could have KOd them both on the same night!

If Patterson is for some reason better than Schmeling, it's not because he was the man of his era, because empirically he wasn't. I see we have a lot of new boxing fans here unfamiliar with the 50s and 60s.

Billy Tully wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 10:12 Patterson notoriously didn't fight his top challengers, it was left to Liston to wrecking ball his way through Williams, Folley, Machen, Valdez et al.

Patterson was 'the man' in name only. Three years of his reign were spent settling superiority between him and Ingo -- Sonny could have KOd them both on the same night!

If Patterson is for some reason better than Schmeling, it's not because he was the man of his era, because empirically he wasn't. I see we have a lot of new boxing fans here unfamiliar with the 50s and 60s.

Patterson won Machen later, but is it necassary to remind our true and old school boxing pundits and followers, how Ingo had dealt with poor Eddie before facing Floyd? Machen's rival Zora Folley was also a bit busy, with losing to Our 'Enry. And Valdez lost to both Machen and Folley, while Williams' resume prior to the Liston blowouts was quite far from stellar as well. Ingo clearly was better than all those guys. Patterson was the man for a while, being dethroned can't take it away.

DrDuke wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 10:37

Billy Tully wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 10:12 Patterson notoriously didn't fight his top challengers, it was left to Liston to wrecking ball his way through Williams, Folley, Machen, Valdez et al.

Patterson was 'the man' in name only. Three years of his reign were spent settling superiority between him and Ingo -- Sonny could have KOd them both on the same night!

If Patterson is for some reason better than Schmeling, it's not because he was the man of his era, because empirically he wasn't. I see we have a lot of new boxing fans here unfamiliar with the 50s and 60s.

Patterson won Machen later, but is it necassary to remind our true and old school boxing pundits and followers, how Ingo had dealt with poor Eddie before facing Floyd? Machen's rival Zora Folley was also a bit busy, with losing to Our 'Enry. And Valdez lost to both Machen and Folley, while Williams' resume prior to the Liston blowouts was quite far from stellar as well. Ingo clearly was better than all those guys. Patterson was the man for a while, being dethroned can't take it away.

Machen was on the way down by the time Patterson fought him, and you're having to perform Olympic level acrobatics to retrofit his reign as a respectable one. Doesn't stand up with posters familiar with the era and with access to the top 10 rankings. You don't even know that Cooper was given a hometown decision over Folley, reversed with a quick KO in the rematch.

You've committed yourself to a god awful argument, and I look forward to your next post.

Billy Tully wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 11:37

DrDuke wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 10:37

Billy Tully wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 10:12 Patterson notoriously didn't fight his top challengers, it was left to Liston to wrecking ball his way through Williams, Folley, Machen, Valdez et al.

Patterson was 'the man' in name only. Three years of his reign were spent settling superiority between him and Ingo -- Sonny could have KOd them both on the same night!

If Patterson is for some reason better than Schmeling, it's not because he was the man of his era, because empirically he wasn't. I see we have a lot of new boxing fans here unfamiliar with the 50s and 60s.

Patterson won Machen later, but is it necassary to remind our true and old school boxing pundits and followers, how Ingo had dealt with poor Eddie before facing Floyd? Machen's rival Zora Folley was also a bit busy, with losing to Our 'Enry. And Valdez lost to both Machen and Folley, while Williams' resume prior to the Liston blowouts was quite far from stellar as well. Ingo clearly was better than all those guys. Patterson was the man for a while, being dethroned can't take it away.

Machen was on the way down by the time Patterson fought him, and you're having to perform Olympic level acrobatics to retrofit his reign as a respectable one. Doesn't stand up with posters familiar with the era and with access to the top 10 rankings. You don't even know that Cooper was given a hometown decision over Folley, reversed with a quick KO in the rematch.

You've committed yourself to a god awful argument, and I look forward to your next post.

You talk Machen been past prime against Patterson and completely ignore Machen being pulverized by Ingo right before the Swede's rivalry vs Floyd. Is this some old school super duper way of arguing or what?

You wasn't even able to watch full Folley-Cooper to make conclusions about that. Neither you read the sourses stating that Folley being good only in the first 3 rounds and the last one.

So, better look forward to the next stroll in the elderly house, some fresh air will help in sorting things out properly.

DrDuke wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 12:00

Billy Tully wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 11:37

DrDuke wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 10:37

Patterson won Machen later, but is it necassary to remind our true and old school boxing pundits and followers, how Ingo had dealt with poor Eddie before facing Floyd? Machen's rival Zora Folley was also a bit busy, with losing to Our 'Enry. And Valdez lost to both Machen and Folley, while Williams' resume prior to the Liston blowouts was quite far from stellar as well. Ingo clearly was better than all those guys. Patterson was the man for a while, being dethroned can't take it away.

Machen was on the way down by the time Patterson fought him, and you're having to perform Olympic level acrobatics to retrofit his reign as a respectable one. Doesn't stand up with posters familiar with the era and with access to the top 10 rankings. You don't even know that Cooper was given a hometown decision over Folley, reversed with a quick KO in the rematch.

You've committed yourself to a god awful argument, and I look forward to your next post.

You talk Machen been past prime against Patterson and completely ignore Machen being pulverized by Ingo right before the Swede's rivalry vs Floyd. Is this some old school super duper way of arguing or what?

You wasn't even able to watch full Folley-Cooper to make conclusions about that. Neither you read the sourses stating that Folley being good only in the first 3 rounds and the last one.

So, better look forward to the next stroll in the elderly house, some fresh air will help in sorting things out properly.

I don't ignore that -- of course Ingo KOd Machen; he also KOd Floyd. At least Floyd got the chance to reverse the loss.

Better you resort to personal insults than explain how Tommy Jackson, Brian London, debutante Rademacher, Roy Harris are worthy challengers and Williams, Folley, Machen and Valdez are not. How can you be the man defending the title against those opponents? Why were Floyd and Cus D'Amato excoriated in the papers and magazines year after year for ducking the best challengers?

You're literally arguing against reality.

Billy Tully wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 12:19

DrDuke wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 12:00

Billy Tully wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 11:37

Machen was on the way down by the time Patterson fought him, and you're having to perform Olympic level acrobatics to retrofit his reign as a respectable one. Doesn't stand up with posters familiar with the era and with access to the top 10 rankings. You don't even know that Cooper was given a hometown decision over Folley, reversed with a quick KO in the rematch.

You've committed yourself to a god awful argument, and I look forward to your next post.

You talk Machen been past prime against Patterson and completely ignore Machen being pulverized by Ingo right before the Swede's rivalry vs Floyd. Is this some old school super duper way of arguing or what?

You wasn't even able to watch full Folley-Cooper to make conclusions about that. Neither you read the sourses stating that Folley being good only in the first 3 rounds and the last one.

So, better look forward to the next stroll in the elderly house, some fresh air will help in sorting things out properly.

I don't ignore that -- of course Ingo KOd Machen; he also KOd Floyd. At least Floyd got the chance to reverse the loss.

Better you resort to personal insults than explain how Tommy Jackson, Brian London, debutante Rademacher, Roy Harris are worthy challengers and Williams, Folley, Machen and Valdez are not. How can you be the man defending the title against those opponents? Why were Floyd and Cus D'Amato excoriated in the papers and magazines year after year for ducking the best challengers?

You're literally arguing against reality.

So, now turning off the smart-aleck mode and talking about someone making personal insults? I don't suggest that Tommy Jackson, Brian London, Rademacher and Roy Harris were more worthy challengers than Williams, Folley, Machen and Valdez. My point was that Williams, Folley, Machen and Valdez blew enough opportunities to be out of the obligatory contender spot. Also, it's the fact that Patterson won the superior opposition in Moore and Johansson. He wasn't seen as a coward, who ducked everybody. Even facing Liston was his own will, which contrasted the opinion of D'Amato about that matchup.

You are rewriting history.

Floyd had to finally overrule Cus and fight Sonny because he was seen as a coward, who ducked everybody!

Boggles my mind you're unaware of this.

Billy Tully wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 14:19 You are rewriting history.

Floyd had to finally overrule Cus and fight Sonny because he was seen as a coward, who ducked everybody!

Boggles my mind you're unaware of this.

Patterson was pretty popular in the eyes of the public. People would hate Liston, infamous because of his criminal past, other than they'd accuse Floyd of ducking him. So, what's about revisionism here?

Billy Tully wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 14:19 You are rewriting history.

Floyd had to finally overrule Cus and fight Sonny because he was seen as a coward, who ducked everybody!

Boggles my mind you're unaware of this.

Patterson did have some title defenses against opponents that weren't that good, no doubt about it. Totally agree that D'Mato didn't want him defending against the best contenders (he claimed it was because they had ties to the IBC).

I just think we need to look at how Patterson and Schmeling did in the fights that they did have.

For Schmeling, obviously he deserves a ton of credit for beating Louis. He also had noteworthy wins against Risko, Stribling, and 2x beat Uzcudun.
On the other hand, he lost badly to Louis in the rematch, lost convincingly to Baer. A fight that always gets overlooked is that he also lost to Steve Hamas. (He did beat Hamas in a rematch.)
And of course there was the two controversial fights against Sharkey. Hard to know what to make of those fights.

Patterson beat Moore, Johannson 2x, Chuvalo and Machen. He looked pretty good in the rematch against Hurricane Jackson. Given his age, the win over Bonavena is pretty impressive.

On the other hand, he lost badly to Johannson, and worse against Liston 2x. And course he decked several times against guys he should not have.
He had controversial fights against Quarry 2x, and Ellis. Hard to know what to make of those fights

This is a lot to chew on.
However, these are the fights that we should all be focusing on.

DrDuke wrote: ↑07 Dec 2021, 15:09 Schmeling's biggest win is prime Joe Louis

The only correction on your post is saying that was prime Joe Louis.
Louis just celebrated his 22nd birthday and had been a pro for less than 2 years at the time.
Not quite prime by any standards.

tiny_acres wrote: ↑10 Dec 2021, 19:40

DrDuke wrote: ↑07 Dec 2021, 15:09 Schmeling's biggest win is prime Joe Louis

The only correction on your post is saying that was prime Joe Louis.
Louis just celebrated his 22nd birthday and had been a pro for less than 2 years at the time.
Not quite prime by any standards.

He was in prime, as it had been seen in his previous fights against Carnera and Baer, as well as it would be seen in his next fight against Sharkey.

definitely patty for me

I bought some old Ring mags yesterday, they were only £2 each. Some 50s and very early 60s one. One has an article "Does Floyd have a glass jaw" from well before he fought Liston. The other has an 8 page spread of their first fight. One of them has Charles on the cover after his win over Louis.

I think looking back, it's fair to say they weren't really that high on Patterson, at the time. I mean can you imagine running an issue now with that question on the front, with him eating a punch?

also found some old Boxing News from the 50s, covering the Robinson era. One of them has an article about how some states won't license Louis.

DrDuke wrote: ↑11 Dec 2021, 02:02

tiny_acres wrote: ↑10 Dec 2021, 19:40

DrDuke wrote: ↑07 Dec 2021, 15:09 Schmeling's biggest win is prime Joe Louis

The only correction on your post is saying that was prime Joe Louis.
Louis just celebrated his 22nd birthday and had been a pro for less than 2 years at the time.
Not quite prime by any standards.

He was in prime, as it had been seen in his previous fights against Carnera and Baer, as well as it would be seen in his next fight against Sharkey.

Compare his performances UpTo the first fight to 3 years later. You will see a vast improvement.
And aren't you one of the people saying a 40 plus fight Canelo at 23 was not prime?
Yet a pro with less than 2 years experience and younger by a smidge Louis is?

tiny_acres wrote: ↑11 Dec 2021, 13:58

DrDuke wrote: ↑11 Dec 2021, 02:02

tiny_acres wrote: ↑10 Dec 2021, 19:40

The only correction on your post is saying that was prime Joe Louis.
Louis just celebrated his 22nd birthday and had been a pro for less than 2 years at the time.
Not quite prime by any standards.

He was in prime, as it had been seen in his previous fights against Carnera and Baer, as well as it would be seen in his next fight against Sharkey.

Compare his performances UpTo the first fight to 3 years later. You will see a vast improvement.
And aren't you one of the people saying a 40 plus fight Canelo at 23 was not prime?
Yet a pro with less than 2 years experience and younger by a smidge Louis is?

As if Louis didn't have any struggles against all his opponents after those 3 years, during his reign.

And should all boxers reach their primes in some particular time?

Billy Tully wrote: ↑09 Dec 2021, 07:17

DrDuke wrote: ↑07 Dec 2021, 15:09 Schmeling's biggest win is prime Joe Louis covers every Patterson's win, while Patterson's wins over ageing, but credible Moore and prime Johansson cover the remaining wins of Schmeling.

Schmeling wasn't consistent during his prime, Patterson was.

Schmeling wasn't the man of his era, Patterson was. That's the most decisive factor with all circumstances.

Patterson rates higher for me easily.

Would Patterson be the man of his era if he was around in Joe Louis' day? No.

Patterson wasn't the man of his era anyway. Sonny Liston was.

Would Schmeling be the man if he was around in Patterson's day? Not if he fought Sonny Liston. But against Patterson's soft opposition? This is a man who squashed Joe Louis!

Schmeling would knock Patterson's brains out.

Billy Tully, I agree with you.

Patterson during his reigns was consistent in that most of the fighters he defended his title against could knock him down or out. Rademacher, Harris, Johansson, Harris, McNeeley, and Liston.

Patterson was the man of his era? What kind of era was it in the heavyweight division? An era in which the champion made no effort to clean out his division against several of his perennial his top challengers and, of the top challengers he did fight, he lost three times if you include both his fights against Liston, both of which were first-round kayos. Floyd only fought one challenger per year in 1958, 1960, and 1961. And and in 1957, 1958, and 1962, his second defenses were at best against lower-tiered contenders, even if you choose to call Rademacher a "contender."

Not all that impressive an "era," in my opinion. As to the match-up against Schmeling, Max had as good a right hand as Johansson and was a much better all-around fighter. He undoubtedly would have landed his right and very likely have knocked Floyd down. He was smart enough to come up with a plan against Joe Louis, and I think he would have been able to come up with a plan to defeat Patterson during Floyd's championship years.