BoxRec

With Tyson Fury still undefeated and not yet finished and maybe already the best man of his generation....I wonder who is all wrong for him from other eras and also how and why they unravel the huge Gypsy King?

Who puts Fury on queer street, upsets the massive guy who can box and also punch when he needs to?

As a starter for ten, I am thinking along the following lines:

The other K Brother.
Vitali was naturally more aggressive in style and outlook.
Equally huge guy into the bargain, decent mobility/stamina and absolutely takes the fight to Fury.
No fiddling around like his kid brother....he looks to impose and land big shots, backs his better chin.

Larry Holmes.
That thudding-metronome jab does damage-hits the target and takes rounds.
Punches from Fury are slipped and blocked. Rounds are taken by Holmes.

Mike Tyson.
No respect for weight, height or reach.
Goes right for the jugular and just turns on the mayhem from the opening bell.
The best of Tyson sees Fury hit hard, often and to the body which is a target.

Lennox Lewis
Easily big enough to look after himself and move to centre ring.
Equal ring-craft and the kind of thudding shots to seal-off rounds.
If Fury backs-off, Lewis follows him and Lennox knew how to finish.

George Foreman.
Same as the above (Lennox) and not remotely spooked by Fury.
And if a mistake happens from Fury, the fight is over with a massive shot.

Muhammed Ali
Too much speed, too much accurate work, too much confidence.
Also resilient enough to survive a few of Fury's clubbing shots.
The main man dances in and out of range - scoring nicely - winning it handily.

Lewis and Holmes probably, because they were versatile.

Vitali sounds possible too, because he was a non-stop mauling jabber and one-twoer with great punch-resistance.

Riddick Bowe gotta be mentioned, cause he could jab back well and take a fight inside.

Holyfield because he could give a hell to anybody.

Threads like this are hard when a career is in progress and a lot of questions are unanswered but from what I've seen of Fury, who I like a lot, all the above names beat him (Vitali is a question mark) along with Frazier, Norton, Louis, Dempsey, Tunney, Liston et al.

If you're having up and downers with someone as bad as Wilder it doesn't bode well. Fury's chin isn't great and the ferocity of the pace of the old timers, along with the accuracy and punch power would be beyond anything big fatty has ever experienced.

Usyk I think will beat him too.

It's difficult to assess somebody when their career is still ongoing but I have said previously that Larry Holmes, George Foreman, Vitali Klitschko, Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis from my vantage point would have been the only ones to have either beaten him or would have given him the most problems.

Everybody else was either too small, or not as versatile, or their style would have been negated by Fury's size and abilities, or they simply did not have the mental makeup. Not saying that the fights would not be competitive or close but I do think Fury would have had their number.

I know there are some on the forum who are of the opinion that Tyson Fury is not in the same league as some past alphabet champions from the 1980s let alone be mentioned in the same breath as the all-time greats, but I honestly think that their assessment is far too strict.

Many people are saying that Usyk is superior to Holyfield, and if Fury were to face him and defeat him for all the marbles I think you would have to make the strong argument that not only was Fury the best man after the retirement of Lennox Lewis but is a legitimate top ten all-time heavyweight.

Usyk better than Holyfield? Where's his Bowe? His Tyson? His Lewis? His Foreman, Douglas, Mercer, Moorer?

I had no idea beating Anthony Joshua was such an accomplishment. What does this make Andy Ruiz? The new Foreman?

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Billy Tully wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 03:06 Usyk better than Holyfield? Where's his Bowe? His Tyson? His Lewis? His Foreman, Douglas, Mercer, Moorer?

I had no idea beating Anthony Joshua was such an accomplishment. What does this make Andy Ruiz? The new Foreman?

That version of Foreman is overrated, to be fair. He went life-and-death with Alex Stewart, struggled with Savarese and was awarded a dec win for being outboxed by Axel Schulz, why he should be much better than the fat Andy?

Yet, talking about Usyk, at HW he isn't on par with Holyfield indeed. However, at CW he was at least comparable.

Billy Tully wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 03:06 Usyk better than Holyfield? Where's his Bowe? His Tyson? His Lewis? His Foreman, Douglas, Mercer, Moorer?

I had no idea beating Anthony Joshua was such an accomplishment. What does this make Andy Ruiz? The new Foreman?

Many people on this forum declared that the Ukrainian is every bit as good as Holyfield or better when he was undisputed cruiserweight champion. And so many people are running off at the head how the Ukrainian has Fury's number on the basis of the Joshua fight.

As for the Ukrainian as a heavyweight let me pose the question: "What was more impressive Holyfield knocking out Douglas for the title or Usyk making Joshua look like an amateur for the title?", I'd say it puts Usyk on the same level of accomplishment or better as Holyfield considering Douglas didn't even try.

That being said, I find such talk to be premature considering Joshua already got exposed by Ruiz and I don't believe he ever truly mentally recovered from that loss anyways. And he's basically pulling a Wilder making different excuses as to why he lost to the Ukrainian.

If Usyk defeats Joshua in the rematch, which is a strong possibility, many will double down on the rhetoric that he has Fury's number. The irony is whenever Fury beats somebody the excuses either come out (ie, I can hear it now, "Usyk was too small") or the opposition gets diminished retrospectively (ie, "Klitschko was not only old he was never great to begin with," or, "Wilder never was any good anyways").

The disrespect is like Larry Holmes or Lennox Lewis all over again. I think Fury is going to be one of those people who is not going to be fully appreciated until a decade after he's retired.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 03:54

The disrespect is like Larry Holmes or Lennox Lewis all over again. I think Fury is going to be one of those people who is not going to be fully appreciated until a decade after he's retired.

I said this on another Fury thread. This happens with lots of fighters, I remember one of the older posters saying Foreman used to get bad press in his first career (a bit before my time) but today hardly anyone would say anything negative about him.

Mike Tyson gets pretty much the opposite press now, in his hey day he was given an almost unbeatable status, today a common opinion is you just had to stand up to him and you had him beat.

DrDuke wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 03:31

Billy Tully wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 03:06 Usyk better than Holyfield? Where's his Bowe? His Tyson? His Lewis? His Foreman, Douglas, Mercer, Moorer?

I had no idea beating Anthony Joshua was such an accomplishment. What does this make Andy Ruiz? The new Foreman?

That version of Foreman is overrated, to be fair. He went life-and-death with Alex Stewart, struggled with Savarese and was awarded a dec win for being outboxed by Axel Schulz, why he should be much better than the fat Andy?

Yet, talking about Usyk, at HW he isn't on par with Holyfield indeed. However, at CW he was at least comparable.

Holyfield fought Foreman in 91. That fight either took a lot out of Foreman, or age began began to take its toll.

You'll disagree with me, but the Foreman who fought Holyfield would KO the likes of Lou Savarese and Axel Schulz et al.

DrDuke wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 03:31

Billy Tully wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 03:06 Usyk better than Holyfield? Where's his Bowe? His Tyson? His Lewis? His Foreman, Douglas, Mercer, Moorer?

I had no idea beating Anthony Joshua was such an accomplishment. What does this make Andy Ruiz? The new Foreman?

That version of Foreman is overrated, to be fair. He went life-and-death with Alex Stewart, struggled with Savarese and was awarded a dec win for being outboxed by Axel Schulz, why he should be much better than the fat Andy?

As someone else said Foreman was pretty much done, he was 47/48, they were 6 years after the Holyfield fight

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 10:52

DrDuke wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 03:31

Billy Tully wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 03:06 Usyk better than Holyfield? Where's his Bowe? His Tyson? His Lewis? His Foreman, Douglas, Mercer, Moorer?

I had no idea beating Anthony Joshua was such an accomplishment. What does this make Andy Ruiz? The new Foreman?

That version of Foreman is overrated, to be fair. He went life-and-death with Alex Stewart, struggled with Savarese and was awarded a dec win for being outboxed by Axel Schulz, why he should be much better than the fat Andy?

As someone else said Foreman was pretty much done, he was 47/48, they were 6 years after the Holyfield fight

Stewart was a year after.

DrDuke wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 10:58

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 10:52

DrDuke wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 03:31

That version of Foreman is overrated, to be fair. He went life-and-death with Alex Stewart, struggled with Savarese and was awarded a dec win for being outboxed by Axel Schulz, why he should be much better than the fat Andy?

As someone else said Foreman was pretty much done, he was 47/48, they were 6 years after the Holyfield fight

Stewart was a year after.

Foreman was pretty much given an easy route to the title shot against Holyfield anyway, Foreman was pretty vocal that he wanted no part of Lewis.

DrDuke wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 10:58

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 10:52

DrDuke wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 03:31

That version of Foreman is overrated, to be fair. He went life-and-death with Alex Stewart, struggled with Savarese and was awarded a dec win for being outboxed by Axel Schulz, why he should be much better than the fat Andy?

As someone else said Foreman was pretty much done, he was 47/48, they were 6 years after the Holyfield fight

Stewart was a year after.

Indicating to everyone, bar you, that the Holyfield performance took a lot out of Foreman.

He was already old versus Holyfield, and getting very, very old (for sport) with each passing year. There's no comparison between the Foreman who fought the great Holyfield and the one fumbling with the definitely not-great Stewart. They're like night and day.

Billy Tully wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 11:20

DrDuke wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 10:58

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 10:52

As someone else said Foreman was pretty much done, he was 47/48, they were 6 years after the Holyfield fight

Stewart was a year after.

Indicating to everyone, bar you, that the Holyfield performance took a lot out of Foreman.

He was already old versus Holyfield, and getting very, very old (for sport) with each passing year. There's no comparison between the Foreman who fought the great Holyfield and the one fumbling with the definitely not-great Stewart. They're like night and day.

It's possible to conclude, that Foreman was declining with years passing by (which I didn't deny actually, so I dunno why you're so obsessed with your thesis). Still there wasn't such a huge gap between those versions of him. He didn't even do anything special in the Holyfield bout, except catching Evander once and eating a barrage in return.

Billy Tully wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 11:20

DrDuke wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 10:58

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 10:52

As someone else said Foreman was pretty much done, he was 47/48, they were 6 years after the Holyfield fight

Stewart was a year after.

Indicating to everyone, bar you, that the Holyfield performance took a lot out of Foreman.

He was already old versus Holyfield, and getting very, very old (for sport) with each passing year. There's no comparison between the Foreman who fought the great Holyfield and the one fumbling with the definitely not-great Stewart. They're like night and day.

Pretty much agree with that. When he Foreman made his comeback, there were different stages. At first he fought several terrible opponents while he was trying to get get rid of some of the ring rust. He was too impressive in these fights at first. Then he gradually looked better. He looked a lot better by the time he was was blowing out Cooney and Rodrigues. To be as competitive as he was with Holyfield was pretty impressive. (Obviously he still was nowhere near as good as he was in his prime) He did start declining after that. He actually didn't look good for most of the Moorer fight until he landed the big KO punch.

Good responses gents....but let's keep some discipline.
It is entirely about who is wrong for Fury rather than side-tracking with other comparison contests and match-ups.

This is Fury v A Problem Guy.

I actually think I was remiss not mentioning Holyfield.

That aggression, work-rate, desire to make things happen and immense physical resilience would have been hugely problematic...Holyfield is always pushing, scoring and he ain't going away.

Bodyshot3 wrote: ↑21 Dec 2021, 15:41 With Tyson Fury still undefeated and not yet finished and maybe already the best man of his generation....I wonder who is all wrong for him from other eras and also how and why they unravel the huge Gypsy King?

Who puts Fury on queer street, upsets the massive guy who can box and also punch when he needs to?

As a starter for ten, I am thinking along the following lines:

The other K Brother.
Vitali was naturally more aggressive in style and outlook.
Equally huge guy into the bargain, decent mobility/stamina and absolutely takes the fight to Fury.
No fiddling around like his kid brother....he looks to impose and land big shots, backs his better chin.

Fury ducked the Wlad rematch because he knew he could never replicate Wlad's poor mental state with his newborn needing a mother who had become absent because of post partum depression, the hell of any father who has ever existed. He could no longer be on steroids either after being backdated busted much like Floydy Jr weeks after the fight. Yeah, and Vit beats him too

Larry Holmes.
That thudding-metronome jab does damage-hits the target and takes rounds.
Punches from Fury are slipped and blocked. Rounds are taken by Holmes.

Hate to be a statistical metronome, but the Tubby Lar who used to be skinny record against fighters having won their titles in the ring is 0-6, 0 KO. He went after Dwayne Bobicks lesser brother after Dwayne knocked him out in the Olympic trials and was Ring rated before him. In short, Lar ducks Fury too

Mike Tyson.
No respect for weight, height or reach.
Goes right for the jugular and just turns on the mayhem from the opening bell.
The best of Tyson sees Fury hit hard, often and to the body which is a target.

Cus team unified 4 belt champ at age 23 having set youth and purse records in the heavy division with a big soft pillow of Fury's body to butcher is a match of Dreams Come True Heaven for young Iron Mike.

Lennox Lewis
Easily big enough to look after himself and move to centre ring.
Equal ring-craft and the kind of thudding shots to seal-off rounds.
If Fury backs-off, Lewis follows him and Lennox knew how to finish.

Fury and Lennie share never having defended their unified titles and ducked record paydays, Lenny vs Vit 2 and Fury vs Wlad 2 and later x2 vs AJ. Interesting match of duckers with poor gate and ppv revenues as neither compelling.


George Foreman.
Same as the above (Lennox) and not remotely spooked by Fury.
And if a mistake happens from Fury, the fight is over with a massive shot.

Young Clubber George not having Sadler dehydrate him before matches would walk through everything Fury had, pulverizing with his wide body shots. Ali managed to just barely live, but not Fury

Muhammed Ali
Too much speed, too much accurate work, too much confidence.
Also resilient enough to survive a few of Fury's clubbing shots.
The main man dances in and out of range - scoring nicely - winning it handily.

Doubtful Herbert would approve of Fury due to his size and demeaning mouth. 1st gen Ali was actually fighting the weak remnants of the 50s. Joe came along to fight all the young 60s guys going into the 70s before Ali ever got to them. In the 60s Ali had to go out of country to get fights because of NOI affiliation made it tough for promoters to secure venues

- And so ye ask, and so ye axeman cometh, but first a Fury refresher.

Big fan of Big Goof from git go as my history on this forum shows going against rabidly tribal Brits who sit on their shlt when it comes to British boxing. They were busy bigging up Pricey and Haye to their forever shame. I still like Pricey though as he gave it his all.

No bigger fan of young Ali or Leonard can be found, but when they started showing up less than honorable intentions I turned on them just as sure as I have Fury.

***Specific comments Italicized in your comments

I would also add Steroid cheat Fury will be 6 years the Ring Champ in 2022 with a single title defense earned at the end of this year. Also the Oscar owned Ring in support with Crack Family Floyd went along with the false narrative of their Holier than Thou Olympic Drug Testing that killed or delayed so many great fights, yet never touched the Immaculate Fury currently enshrined in The Church of No Man Born of His Mother, a more shameless bunch having never been assembled in 21st Century Boxing.

Oh, and much speculation over Fury vs Usyk, who with a 25-0, 15KO with umpteen title defenses after having unified, why he smashes the Field heavy record of 26-10-2, 16 KO who could only fall apart after Big George tenderized him much like Ali did after Zaire. Fury won't make any $$$ fight Usyk who is quite likely to be beat if not KOed by AJ. Hope AJ ignores him this time to finish out a stellar career on a high note. Remember, Fat Andy the only fighter willing to step to the scratch line in AJ's American debut after Big Baby, Fury, Deyonce, Kownacki, Ortiz, and Whyte turned down record purses to fight AJ.

Fact: Mentally weak Fury came back weak as a kitten to go after the easier low hanging fruit of Haymon's Deyonce. He's finally found his level. C'est la vie

Bodyshot3 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 15:17 Good responses gents....but let's keep some discipline.
It is entirely about who is wrong for Fury rather than side-tracking with other comparison contests and match-ups.

This is Fury v A Problem Guy.

I actually think I was remiss not mentioning Holyfield.

That aggression, work-rate, desire to make things happen and immense physical resilience would have been hugely problematic...Holyfield is always pushing, scoring and he ain't going away.

OK, a few obvious ones right off the bat: Besides, Holyfield, there is Ali, Louis, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, Liston, Lewis, Tyson. He has almost no chance of beating them.
Several more that would probably beat him. After, several more that would be pick 'em.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Dec 2021, 13:58

Bodyshot3 wrote: ↑22 Dec 2021, 15:17 Good responses gents....but let's keep some discipline.
It is entirely about who is wrong for Fury rather than side-tracking with other comparison contests and match-ups.

This is Fury v A Problem Guy.

I actually think I was remiss not mentioning Holyfield.

That aggression, work-rate, desire to make things happen and immense physical resilience would have been hugely problematic...Holyfield is always pushing, scoring and he ain't going away.

OK, a few obvious ones right off the bat: Besides, Holyfield, there is Ali, Louis, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, Liston, Lewis, Tyson. He has almost no chance of beating them.
Several more that would probably beat him. After, several more that would be pick 'em.

I'd like to see Jimmy Young vs Fury.

It's amazing how one result totally alters peoples perception of their unbeatable active favourite.

2 years ago lots of people on forums thought Anthony Joshua could beat the likes of Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson, and would be too big for the greats of the past. In 2021 its difficult to think of a good name you don't think would beat him.

If a Dillian Whyte chins Fury then evidently the opponents all wrong for Fury are virtually everyone bar one dimensional Wilder, Wladimir types. Let's see how his careers goes.

There are probably still who think that about Joshua. There are people who actually laugh when you pick a truly great heavyweight from long ago to beat Fury as well. So many people think the sport started the day they became a fan and that guys from their era are automatically better.

Even if a guy looks good, you have to wait until he is well tested before you know how good he really is.

Only illiterates had a strong belief in Joshua. I've been always saying, that Joshua was receiving his dividends in advance. I've always been calling Fury the best out there, since he won Klitschko.

Nobody for the other/older K Brother being all wrong?

I think Vitali goes right for Fury and ain't bothered about slipping some rounds.....knows that he is going to get jabbed but is going to attack and take the kind of risks in a way his brother did not.

Vitali was a big geezer, nasty aggressive streak but not a lumbering hulk chasing after Fury and missing.

This is the fight I really like - Fury in with another huge, modern heavyweight who is confident and has some skills/stamina.