BoxRec

Ive whined about them before ,but 2 specific fights really bothered me and Sugar Ray Leonard participated in both.

1st ,the Hagler fight. Ive went back and forth in my head with my own conspiracy theories and even wondered was it a fixed fight,did Hagler throw it??

After saying this aloud and hearing others comment,I come to the conclusion that as great as Hagler was,and he was,there were a few times he didn't actually freeze,but I guess more so got tentative.Like the Antufermo & Duran fights.

Getting accustomed to him banging out guys like Hearns,Sibson,& Roldan,it seems unnatural for him to not go all out.

And him being a Prideful Champion and fighter, I came to the conclusion that he wouldn't throw a fight.

He wanted to be recognized in history for his accomplishments as a Middleweight Champion and where he would rank and throwing a fight blows that out the window.

But it bugs me that Hagler didn't dig in and fight like the Champion he was.

2nd Lalonde.
Realistically,Leonard would have won this decisively . But what bugs me is his demand for the reigning Champion to come down in weight to meet him,the challenger,then the stipulation of winning a 2nd title via the same fight.That had sham/circus smeared all over it.

If another fighter made these outrageous demands ,he would have been slammed til this day.

Okay,that's it for now.

Hagler was past it and Leonard was a self centred arsehole. That's' about the sum of it

Hagler was on the slide for sure, 66 fights over 14 years against many tough opponents, he wasn't old in years (32) but had a lot of miles on the clock and was making his 13th title defence against Leonard. Also factor in he was pretty inactive in his last few years too, one fight 1985, one in 1986 and then a 13 month gap before fighting Leonard in 1987.

I know Leonard had been out the ring for almost three years and was jumping up to MW but he was still fresh in comparison, younger at 30 years old and with 34 fights over 7 years.

Leonard was obviously a great boxer so pulled off the upset but Hagler wasn't the same fighter he used to be in my opinion.

Hagler was great. He was closer to his best than Leonard was to his. No trainer would want their fighter to have 1 fight in five years in order to be "fresh". Having a 1 fight in 5 years gave Hagler a huge edge. Not even worth arguing about it. So why did Hagler lose? Because Leonard was even better.

As for Donny Lalonde, they were trying to pump up interest in the fight, having it for two titles. It was a gimmick. These are just paper titles, no reason to really care. Obviously LaLonde didn't have to agree to that. Still, 168 was closer to his ideal fighting weight than Leonard.
This fight should not "bug" anyone. It simply was not very important.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑27 Dec 2021, 11:51 No trainer would want their fighter to have 1 fight in five years in order to be "fresh". Having a 1 fight in 5 years gave Hagler a huge edge.

Except SRL was having fights behind closed doors, 10oz gloves, timekeeper, ref and no headguards. He trained and prepared specifically for Hagler, so the ring rust not as much of an issue as it may seem. At the end of the day its SRL, the man was supremely talented, its not your average Joe making a comeback.

Hagler was suppose to demolish Sugar Ray Leonard that night and send him into retirement, and Leonard was supposedly washed up when he fought Kevin Howard almost 3 years earlier. When it didn't happen we had to be subjected to excuses from people who couldn't accept that Leonard won the fight fair and square. The ring was too big, fight should have been 15 rds, Hagler fought the wrong fight the first 4 rds, Leonard was having secret fights, two of the judges were going to score it for SRL no matter what, and of course if you watch the fight enough times, you'll eventually see that Hagler really one, and the best one of all, SRL was ready to go in the 12th . The truth is Leonard won because his hand, head and foot speed were better, and he proved he could handle anything Hagler hit him with.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑27 Dec 2021, 11:51 Hagler was great. He was closer to his best than Leonard was to his. No trainer would want their fighter to have 1 fight in five years in order to be "fresh". Having a 1 fight in 5 years gave Hagler a huge edge. Not even worth arguing about it. So why did Hagler lose? Because Leonard was even better.

As for Donny Lalonde, they were trying to pump up interest in the fight, having it for two titles. It was a gimmick. These are just paper titles, no reason to really care. Obviously LaLonde didn't have to agree to that. Still, 168 was closer to his ideal fighting weight than Leonard.
This fight should not "bug" anyone. It simply was not very important.

The reason it bugged me was the demand itself. True Lalonde didn't have to accept it but can you imagine that of another fighter?

Hagler telling Spinks," I'll fight you for YOUR title,but you have to come down to 168. And oh yeah,I win a Title that doesn't exist yet if I beat you.".

But you're right it shouldn't bother me,but Leonard was such a highly skilled fighter that it was beneath him to play that role.
Kind of like refusing Hearns a rematch for so long.
As great as Leonard was,he had the potential to be much greater. But "what ifs" get you nowhere.

zuru wrote: ↑27 Dec 2021, 13:59
Hagler telling Spinks," I'll fight you for YOUR title,but you have to come down to 168. And oh yeah,I win a Title that doesn't exist yet if I beat you.".

Boxing stinks and money talks. Holmes was handed the newly created IBF belt. The big fighters will try and stack the cards in their favour, winning arguments on ring size, location, weight etc.., Im sure loads of deals are done behind closed doors.

but how much did Sugar Ray Leonard actually weigh for the LaLonde fight ?
didn't he have a big chain around his waist at the weigh-in or something like that ?

Hagler was the undisputed middleweight champion and #1 p4p at the time.
Widely regarded THE best boxer on the planet at the time of the fight.
The detractors always make sure they never mention that.
Anybody trying to say Hagler was a spent bullet is just spouting garbage trying to discredit a result they just don't like.

I know boxing is dirty and lots of shady deals made.
I thought Leonard had silver dollars in his pockets to weigh more.
And admittedly, it's easy to complain, but in the same situation,Im sure I would want as much as I could in my favor.(Leonard wanting them to wear bigger gloves vs Camacho?I think,not sure)

Both Hagler and Leonard were exceptional.
But after rewatching it seems like Hagler vs Duran,Antufermo when he got tentative instead of going all out.
No excuses just my thoughts.

Leonard should have just met Lalonde without the stipulation,gave up the weight and got more credit than the taint it put on the fight.But it happened.

can you imagine how bad Donny LaLonde would have looked if he had backed out at the last minute ?

I’m a fan of both Hagler and SRL, it’s been many years since I saw the fight so I can’t even remember who I thought won anymore .

For Hagler to lose the decision to an ATG like SRL is no disgrace but I still feel Hagler wasn’t the fighter he was. That’s not taking anything away from Leonard. If they fought 10 times I’m sure Hagler would have won a few too, it’s just how boxing is sometimes.

legit win for sugar ray, i know it stings bad

Perseus wrote: ↑28 Dec 2021, 19:45 Hagler was the undisputed middleweight champion and #1 p4p at the time.
Widely regarded THE best boxer on the planet at the time of the fight.
The detractors always make sure they never mention that.
Anybody trying to say Hagler was a spent bullet is just spouting garbage trying to discredit a result they just don't like.

Have to agree with you there. Leonard is the one who farther from his prime. Hagler was great . Leonard was better.

zuru wrote: ↑27 Dec 2021, 13:59

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑27 Dec 2021, 11:51 Hagler was great. He was closer to his best than Leonard was to his. No trainer would want their fighter to have 1 fight in five years in order to be "fresh". Having a 1 fight in 5 years gave Hagler a huge edge. Not even worth arguing about it. So why did Hagler lose? Because Leonard was even better.

As for Donny Lalonde, they were trying to pump up interest in the fight, having it for two titles. It was a gimmick. These are just paper titles, no reason to really care. Obviously LaLonde didn't have to agree to that. Still, 168 was closer to his ideal fighting weight than Leonard.
This fight should not "bug" anyone. It simply was not very important.

The reason it bugged me was the demand itself. True Lalonde didn't have to accept it but can you imagine that of another fighter?

Hagler telling Spinks," I'll fight you for YOUR title,but you have to come down to 168. And oh yeah,I win a Title that doesn't exist yet if I beat you.".

But you're right it shouldn't bother me,but Leonard was such a highly skilled fighter that it was beneath him to play that role.
Kind of like refusing Hearns a rematch for so long.
As great as Leonard was,he had the potential to be much greater. But "what ifs" get you nowhere.

Hagler could have asked Spinks to do that. Spinks could have agreed with it if he wanted to. Does it bug you that Hagler never moved up in weight? Leonard did, Duran did. Hearns did. Hagler never moved did.

Leo did not make Hearns wait for a rematch. That simply didn't happen. If Hearns would have stayed at 147 not have moved up to 154 immediately after Leonard beat him, he would have got a rematch against Leonard within a year.

Leonard lived up to his potential. The guy beat four of the top 50 fighters of all time, despite missing almost 5 years of his prime. How much more was he supposed to have done?

It does seem impossible to please Leonard haters. They are reduced to complaining that he didn't do the same thing a second time, or didn't fight some name far less great and dangerous than those he did (Pryor etc)

You wonder how Mayweather will be remembered on the forums of the future, with his record, given that benitez, Hearns, Duran and Hagler aren't enough!

Leonard's record is the stuff dreams are made of.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑30 Dec 2021, 15:11

zuru wrote: ↑27 Dec 2021, 13:59

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑27 Dec 2021, 11:51 Hagler was great. He was closer to his best than Leonard was to his. No trainer would want their fighter to have 1 fight in five years in order to be "fresh". Having a 1 fight in 5 years gave Hagler a huge edge. Not even worth arguing about it. So why did Hagler lose? Because Leonard was even better.

As for Donny Lalonde, they were trying to pump up interest in the fight, having it for two titles. It was a gimmick. These are just paper titles, no reason to really care. Obviously LaLonde didn't have to agree to that. Still, 168 was closer to his ideal fighting weight than Leonard.
This fight should not "bug" anyone. It simply was not very important.

The reason it bugged me was the demand itself. True Lalonde didn't have to accept it but can you imagine that of another fighter?

Hagler telling Spinks," I'll fight you for YOUR title,but you have to come down to 168. And oh yeah,I win a Title that doesn't exist yet if I beat you.".

But you're right it shouldn't bother me,but Leonard was such a highly skilled fighter that it was beneath him to play that role.
Kind of like refusing Hearns a rematch for so long.
As great as Leonard was,he had the potential to be much greater. But "what ifs" get you nowhere.

Hagler could have asked Spinks to do that. Spinks could have agreed with it if he wanted to. Does it bug you that Hagler never moved up in weight? Leonard did, Duran did. Hearns did. Hagler never moved did.

Leo did not make Hearns wait for a rematch. That simply didn't happen. If Hearns would have stayed at 147 not have moved up to 154 immediately after Leonard beat him, he would have got a rematch against Leonard within a year.

Leonard lived up to his potential. The guy beat four of the top 50 fighters of all time, despite missing almost 5 years of his prime. How much more was he supposed to have done?

Leonard did refuse Hearns a rematch and stated something to the effect that there wasn't a need I dont remember his exact words.
And I never said Hagler was on the downhill nor I hated Leonard.he at one time was one of my favorite fighters.
I was giving "my" opinion,period.

And Hagler never had a desire to move up or down to the best of my knowledge.That was simply a hypothetical example

Billy Tully wrote: ↑30 Dec 2021, 15:56 It does seem impossible to please Leonard haters. They are reduced to complaining that he didn't do the same thing a second time, or didn't fight some name far less great and dangerous than those he did (Pryor etc)

You wonder how Mayweather will be remembered on the forums of the future, with his record, given that benitez, Hearns, Duran and Hagler aren't enough!

Leonard's record is the stuff dreams are made of.

And i assume you're referring to me(if not I apologize),but if you are,I mentioned. his fights against Lalonde and Hagler. I acknowledged I have been wrong with my assessment of the Hagler fight after all this time and finally rewatching it,and yes that was a b.s.prima Donna move Leonard made against Lalonde. No Lalonde didn't have to accept it but he did.
My opinion. Was Leonard a great? Sure he was. Did he pull some Dick moves? Yes he did. Did I say he wasn't a great fighter? No.

I hate what Leonard did 1988 onwards and wish he had retired after Hagler.

zuru wrote: ↑30 Dec 2021, 23:54

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑30 Dec 2021, 15:11

zuru wrote: ↑27 Dec 2021, 13:59

The reason it bugged me was the demand itself. True Lalonde didn't have to accept it but can you imagine that of another fighter?

Hagler telling Spinks," I'll fight you for YOUR title,but you have to come down to 168. And oh yeah,I win a Title that doesn't exist yet if I beat you.".

But you're right it shouldn't bother me,but Leonard was such a highly skilled fighter that it was beneath him to play that role.
Kind of like refusing Hearns a rematch for so long.
As great as Leonard was,he had the potential to be much greater. But "what ifs" get you nowhere.

Hagler could have asked Spinks to do that. Spinks could have agreed with it if he wanted to. Does it bug you that Hagler never moved up in weight? Leonard did, Duran did. Hearns did. Hagler never moved did.

Leo did not make Hearns wait for a rematch. That simply didn't happen. If Hearns would have stayed at 147 not have moved up to 154 immediately after Leonard beat him, he would have got a rematch against Leonard within a year.

Leonard lived up to his potential. The guy beat four of the top 50 fighters of all time, despite missing almost 5 years of his prime. How much more was he supposed to have done?

Leonard did refuse Hearns a rematch and stated something to the effect that there wasn't a need I dont remember his exact words.
And I never said Hagler was on the downhill nor I hated Leonard.he at one time was one of my favorite fighters.
I was giving "my" opinion,period.

Again, Leonard did not "refuse" to give Hearns a rematch. Hearns moved up in weight right after their fight. Less than three months after their fight, Hearns moved out of the welterweight division never to return. Had he stayed a round and been the number one contender, Leonard would have had to have defended his title against him.

If anything, you could claim that Hearns avoided a rematch with Leonard.
Always amazes me that people accuse Leonard of all people of ducking someone. He went out of his way to fight the best.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑24 Jan 2022, 17:03

zuru wrote: ↑30 Dec 2021, 23:54

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑30 Dec 2021, 15:11

Hagler could have asked Spinks to do that. Spinks could have agreed with it if he wanted to. Does it bug you that Hagler never moved up in weight? Leonard did, Duran did. Hearns did. Hagler never moved did.

Leo did not make Hearns wait for a rematch. That simply didn't happen. If Hearns would have stayed at 147 not have moved up to 154 immediately after Leonard beat him, he would have got a rematch against Leonard within a year.

Leonard lived up to his potential. The guy beat four of the top 50 fighters of all time, despite missing almost 5 years of his prime. How much more was he supposed to have done?

Leonard did refuse Hearns a rematch and stated something to the effect that there wasn't a need I dont remember his exact words.
And I never said Hagler was on the downhill nor I hated Leonard.he at one time was one of my favorite fighters.
I was giving "my" opinion,period.

Again, Leonard did not "refuse" to give Hearns a rematch. Hearns moved up in weight right after their fight. Less than three months after their fight, Hearns moved out of the welterweight division never to return. Had he stayed a round and been the number one contender, Leonard would have had to have defended his title against him.

If anything, you could claim that Hearns avoided a rematch with Leonard.
Always amazes me that people accuse Leonard of all people of ducking someone. He went out of his way to fight the best.

I agree 100% Mr Alp. Also Leonard beat him fair and square, so I'm not even sure how he 'owed' Hearns a rematch. And I'm a massive Hearns fan.

Hagler always struggled with fighters who looked to counter and who didn't come to him.

If you were aggressive and allowed him to counter then he would chop you up. He didn't like to lead. It's why he struggled with Duran, Finnegan etc...

Leonard was the face of the sport and just like all the top fighters since he skewed the odds in his favour whenever he could. Look at what followed... Jones, Mayweather, Klitschko, Alvarez, etc... They all built on what Leonard did.

He also wanted the 4 world titles record thing... It was complete bu11sh1t. And he stopped being my favourite fighter at that point.

Ezzard wrote: ↑25 Jan 2022, 07:05 Hagler always struggled with fighters who looked to counter and who didn't come to him.

If you were aggressive and allowed him to counter then he would chop you up. He didn't like to lead. It's why he struggled with Duran, Finnegan etc...

Leonard was the face of the sport and just like all the top fighters since he skewed the odds in his favour whenever he could. Look at what followed... Jones, Mayweather, Klitschko, Alvarez, etc... They all built on what Leonard did.

He also wanted the 4 world titles record thing... It was complete bu11sh1t. And he stopped being my favourite fighter at that point.

Boxing is a business and a very dirty one at that. Leonard managed to get out of the game with his brains and money intact and I admire him greatly for that. I'm more of a Hearns fan boxing wise, but Tommy like so many others went bankrupt and ended up with slurred speech.