BoxRec

12 rounds.

Joe.Kelly wrote: ↑08 Jan 2022, 13:04 This is a very interesting question. I'm not going to pick a winner, but I will assert one thing. IMO, it's debatable as to whether the smallish Rocky could have survived against guys who were 40 to 50 lbs heavier than him. I'm talking about the big heavyweights of the post-1990 era, and that includes David Tua.

Interestingly, I remember reading an article by Graham Houston in an old Boxing Monthly issue (dating from 2000, I think). Graham stated outright that Rocky probably couldn't have held his own with the big guys of the new era, including Lewis, the Klitschko brothers, Bowe, Holyfield, Holmes, Ali, Norton, Foreman, Tyson and numerous others.

Like it or not, size is a factor in determining the outcome of fights. There's a reason why they say a good big guy almost always beats a good little guy.

In my mind, the real question about Rocky Marciano is whether he was the greatest cruiserweight of all time. Rocky's true field of competition is anyone between the 175 lbs and 200 lbs limits. Outside of Joe Louis, it's very possible that Marciano would have beaten anyone in history who fought at that weight category. But pitting Rocky against opponents 6'5", 235 lbs (who could fight) is another question altogether.

I think, if Marciano emerged in the 90s or 2000s, he'd still be a HW. He would be more bulked and with more fat, resembling Tua himself, but not that fat. Probably something closer to Joe Mesi. And Marciano in reality wasn't a type of a fighter, who relied on speed or agility, so extra pounds shouldn't have made him much different.

Joe.Kelly wrote: ↑08 Jan 2022, 14:36

DrDuke wrote: ↑08 Jan 2022, 14:03 I think, if Marciano emerged in the 90s or 2000s, he'd still be a HW. He would be more bulked and with more fat, resembling Tua himself, but not that fat. Probably something closer to Joe Mesi. And Marciano in reality wasn't a type of a fighter, who relied on speed or agility, so extra pounds shouldn't have made him much different.

Interesting observation.

However, Marciano would have had to put on at least 30 lbs - in fact, closer to 40 lbs - just to have had a snowball's chance against the big guys of the 1990s and 21st century.

Do you really think Marciano could have successfully bulked up to 217 lbs or 227 lbs and still retained his strength? Remember: sometimes squat, powerful guys who bulk up (in pro boxing) just get bigger, they don't necessary acquire extra strength and power as they increase in size.

Also, there's the question of whether a hittable fighter like Rocky could have stood up to the bombs of a Tyson, Lewis, Bowe or Klitschko even if he did weigh in at a strong 220 lbs.

My guess is that even though Marciano and Tua stood the same height (5'10 3/4 or so) and were stocky, they were still not the same size for reasons of nature. Tua was simply a bigger, thicker, wider, stockier guy than Marciano regardless of how little or how much body fat each guy carried.

I believe, Marciano would be just a bit above the limit, 203-205 lbs. Being around 220 lbs would be too much for his anthropometrics without getting too fat. Being slightly above 200 lbs he would probably retain his strength.

Taking bombs of Tyson, Lewis, Bowe and Klitschko? Well, he had a good chin anyway. And he fought the guys about 200 lbs, Walcott was nearly that heavy. The thing is, I won't pick Rocky over the likes of Tyson, Lewis, Bowe and Klitschko for different reason. Those were not only bigger, but also much more skilled. Although Rocky had a great puncher's chance against Wlad.

However, I can easily see Rocky winning particularly Tua, who didn't have sublime boxing skills.

I'm proposing Marciano at his historical weight of 187lbs.(approximately) versus Tua who must have averaged 225 pounds at his peak.

Believing a guy could just pack on 30 lbs and then be as good at 215 as he was at 185 is a mighty big assumption.

Tua KO 7

Both at their best, Rocky gives a valiant effort, and in the end is battered to a bloody defeat by the big, strong Samoan Tank Tua.

This would be a war as they both liked to slug it out, and fight, but Tua's just gonna be too strong here.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑09 Jan 2022, 16:56 Both at their best, Rocky gives a valiant effort, and in the end is battered to a bloody defeat by the big, strong Samoan Tank Tua.

This would be a war as they both liked to slug it out, and fight, but Tua's just gonna be too strong here.

I agree with this. Tua was the bigger, stronger man, just as tough and just as hard chinned. Rocky could outwork him to a points decision but I don't see it going to a decision. I have to favour the bigger stronger man in this type of fight as well.

As DrDuke mentioned, Rocky would've likely weighed around 203-205,had he been around to be a competing pro boxer,in the 2000's. Evander Holyfield weighed in at 208 vs Foreman in 1991. Tommy Morrison also weighed in at 208,in around his 10th pro bout. Obviously, there is RJJ,who weighed 193 vs John Ruiz in 2003. So basically,I'm envisioning a hypothetical scenario where if Rocky Marciano fought between, say, 1990-2005,pro debuting at 23, and retiring at 38, I could see Rocky campaigning at cruiserweight, for his first two years, and then getting Hungry,Figuratively speaking,and going for the gusto,the Big Money,which is profoundly Obviously More Abundantly financially Lucrative at HW.

I personally think that Rocky would've pulled off Many impressive victories, had he been competing in that era.
Offhand, I think his list of wins would've included,The likes of, Tommy Morrison, Andrew Golota, Brian Neilson,Ray Mercer, Michael Bentt,Francisco Damiani, Oleg Maskaev, Bruce Seldon,Bert Cooper,Joe Hipp,Alex Garcia,Jesse Ferguson,Frans Botha,and Roy Jones Jr,in a hypo what if bout,post John Ruiz win for Jones. Also,Rocky could definitely win vs John Ruiz,had they made that bout,but likely,Rocky would've took on Corrie Sanders instead,during that time. That one is too tough to call though,imo. But anyway,i think that Rocky's final record in that era would've been something around 67-7-2 and 52 ko's.
And finally,in a hypo vs Tua, I think That Tua would win by ref or corner stoppage, in round 10, or after that round.
I think that Rocky would protest the stoppage though. It'd be a matter of saving him from himself in certain bouts.

The scale doesn't win fights in real life.
Great fighters under 200 almost never lose to someone over 220. We had a thread on this several years ago. We listed every fight that we could with a fighter 200 or less against someone over 220. I think the smaller guy won something like 27-2-1.

As for Marciano-Tua, I would say Marciano wins by late stoppage. If Tua was busy, he would have a better chance. Usually he wasn't busy enough. One left hook isn't going to win this.

Even if Marciano could successfully pack on 30 lbs, he'd still be facing a guy who Lennox Lewis, Ike Ibeabuchi, Hasim Rahman, and Oleg Maskaev couldn't drop. If Marciano was a mover he might have a chance, but in this scenario he'd still be going toe to toe with a guy with a better chin and a bigger punch.

Seamus wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 13:31 Even if Marciano could successfully pack on 30 lbs, he'd still be facing a guy who Lennox Lewis, Ike Ibeabuchi, Hasim Rahman, and Oleg Maskaev couldn't drop. If Marciano was a mover he might have a chance, but in this scenario he'd still be going toe to toe with a guy with a better chin and a bigger punch.

Btw, Rahman dropped Tua after the final bell, it wasn't counted.

DrDuke wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 13:37

Seamus wrote: ↑11 Jan 2022, 13:31 Even if Marciano could successfully pack on 30 lbs, he'd still be facing a guy who Lennox Lewis, Ike Ibeabuchi, Hasim Rahman, and Oleg Maskaev couldn't drop. If Marciano was a mover he might have a chance, but in this scenario he'd still be going toe to toe with a guy with a better chin and a bigger punch.

Btw, Rahman dropped Tua after the final bell, it wasn't counted.

I caught that when it happened. He kinda pointed at him like "Ahh ya see. I got him!"

But as you say it was after the bell so it wasn't official. Also looked like more of a balance thing than a case of Tua being hurt, he was just coming in full bore to close out the fight with a rally of punches, and his feet were close together so when Rahman tagged him it knocked him backward, and he fell.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Jan 2022, 15:31 The scale doesn't win fights in real life.
Great fighters under 200 almost never lose to someone over 220. We had a thread on this several years ago. We listed every fight that we could with a fighter 200 or less against someone over 220. I think the smaller guy won something like 27-2-1.

As for Marciano-Tua, I would say Marciano wins by late stoppage. If Tua was busy, he would have a better chance. Usually he wasn't busy enough. One left hook isn't going to win this.

It's not just the weight. It's everything. Tua is hard as a rock, and near impossible to hurt. Add that to the fact that he's got the extra weight, and he's a big problem for Marciano. Marciano wasn't exactly a slickster with a variety of ways to win. He just came at you, and attacked you until he broke you down. Well he's not gonna break Tua down. He's gonna run into a wall that doesn't budge, and the wall hits back hard.

My main problem is the "Add that to the fact that he's got the extra weight, and he's a big problem for Marciano."

Again, the extra weight in not some built in advantage. You have to be able to do something with this extra weight, and hope it doesn't hinder in you in other areas.
If you think Tua has some advantage in some areas, fine. But you can't just add "extra weight" as well as if is an advantage by itself. It's not.

Power and chin are supposed to be big advantages for Tua?
Are they really? Marciano had a very good chin himself. It's entirely possible that he could hold up to Tua's shots.
Marciano was a brutal puncher himself. He was a harder puncher than Rahman.

We also have to look at the advantages that Marciano had. He was relentless. He would just keep coming and coming, round after round. Tua would be getting more than he ever did in his career. Maybe he wilts in the late rounds. Or maybe Marciano does enough to win a decision.

I think people sometimes think of Tua this way as well. He really wasn't. Remember the Lennox Lewis comment. Something like all Tua had was a "left hook and a haircut."

He had many fights where he did very little except go for a big left hook once in a while. That probably would not be enough to get it done.

Mismatch Dave would destroy him and a trip to the hospital rock was way to small and to outdated never would land like trolls picking him are crazy

Rocky would not of been a heavyweight in today's landscape.
He weighed on average 185 that is close to what Canelo weighs on fight night now
With today's nutrition he would be the perfect opponent for Canelo.
What a dream match

David Tua by knockout in 9. He would have been too big and strong for Rocky.

tiny_acres wrote: ↑24 Apr 2022, 09:55 Rocky would not of been a heavyweight in today's landscape.
He weighed on average 185 that is close to what Canelo weighs on fight night now
With today's nutrition he would be the perfect opponent for Canelo.
What a dream match

yep, a guy who weighs 185 on fight night is basically a lhw at most now

for perspective, when sullivan barrera and joe smith fought at 175, on fight night they were:

6'2 190 pounds
6'1 187 pounds
vs
5'10 185 pounds

ya size isnt everything, but with marciano you're dealing with a face first guy who is massively outsized. it's just silly and naive to act like being the size of a light heavyweight or even super middle wouldnt make a difference vs full fledged heavys. artur beterbiev's a beast at 175, but absolutely no one talks about him cleaning up heavyweight for good reason

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 00:06

tiny_acres wrote: ↑24 Apr 2022, 09:55 Rocky would not of been a heavyweight in today's landscape.
He weighed on average 185 that is close to what Canelo weighs on fight night now
With today's nutrition he would be the perfect opponent for Canelo.
What a dream match

yep, a guy who weighs 185 on fight night is basically a lhw at most now

for perspective, when sullivan barrera and joe smith fought at 175, on fight night they were:

6'2 190 pounds
6'1 187 pounds
vs
5'10 185 pounds

ya size isnt everything, but with marciano you're dealing with a face first guy who is massively outsized. it's just silly and naive to act like being the size of a light heavyweight or even super middle wouldnt make a difference vs full fledged heavys. artur beterbiev's a beast at 175, but absolutely no one talks about him cleaning up heavyweight for good reason

And I would like to clarify that I do consider Rocky an all time great. But with day before weigh ins Marciano could and would be a super middleweight.
And damn he would be a terror at that weight

tiny_acres wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 08:42

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 00:06

tiny_acres wrote: ↑24 Apr 2022, 09:55 Rocky would not of been a heavyweight in today's landscape.
He weighed on average 185 that is close to what Canelo weighs on fight night now
With today's nutrition he would be the perfect opponent for Canelo.
What a dream match

yep, a guy who weighs 185 on fight night is basically a lhw at most now

for perspective, when sullivan barrera and joe smith fought at 175, on fight night they were:

6'2 190 pounds
6'1 187 pounds
vs
5'10 185 pounds

ya size isnt everything, but with marciano you're dealing with a face first guy who is massively outsized. it's just silly and naive to act like being the size of a light heavyweight or even super middle wouldnt make a difference vs full fledged heavys. artur beterbiev's a beast at 175, but absolutely no one talks about him cleaning up heavyweight for good reason

And I would like to clarify that I do consider Rocky an all time great. But with day before weigh ins Marciano could and would be a super middleweight.
And damn he would be a terror at that weight

There is no way in the world he would have been a super middleweight. He would have been a heavyweight and would have done very well. People need to actually watch his fights, get past the filppin needle on the scale.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 11:08

tiny_acres wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 08:42

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 00:06

yep, a guy who weighs 185 on fight night is basically a lhw at most now

for perspective, when sullivan barrera and joe smith fought at 175, on fight night they were:

6'2 190 pounds
6'1 187 pounds
vs
5'10 185 pounds

ya size isnt everything, but with marciano you're dealing with a face first guy who is massively outsized. it's just silly and naive to act like being the size of a light heavyweight or even super middle wouldnt make a difference vs full fledged heavys. artur beterbiev's a beast at 175, but absolutely no one talks about him cleaning up heavyweight for good reason

And I would like to clarify that I do consider Rocky an all time great. But with day before weigh ins Marciano could and would be a super middleweight.
And damn he would be a terror at that weight

There is no way in the world he would have been a super middleweight. He would have been a heavyweight and would have done very well. People need to actually watch his fights, get past the filppin needle on the scale.

Alp I respect you and your opinion.
But reality is Marciano could of easily made 168 with day before weigh ins.
His height, reach and weight would not let him compete at the upper level in today's landscape.
And before you start saying I'm one of these youngsters who believes boxing started in 2000.
I'm one of the oldest posters in here.
I still find Marciano tough as nails but Usyk Fury Joshua and several others today would destroy Rocky. It's just reality

tyson fury vs roman gonzalez....even money fight, gotta look past the scale lol!

but seriously, 5'10/68 inch reach/185 pounds fight night............that's the size of a short light heavy today. i know that might suck to admit for some people, but obviously it's gotta be factored into picking

tiny_acres wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 11:19

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 11:08

tiny_acres wrote: ↑25 Apr 2022, 08:42

And I would like to clarify that I do consider Rocky an all time great. But with day before weigh ins Marciano could and would be a super middleweight.
And damn he would be a terror at that weight

There is no way in the world he would have been a super middleweight. He would have been a heavyweight and would have done very well. People need to actually watch his fights, get past the filppin needle on the scale.

Alp I respect you and your opinion.
But reality is Marciano could of easily made 168 with day before weigh ins.
His height, reach and weight would not let him compete at the upper level in today's landscape.
And before you start saying I'm one of these youngsters who believes boxing started in 2000.
I'm one of the oldest posters in here.
I still find Marciano tough as nails but Usyk Fury Joshua and several others today would destroy Rocky. It's just reality

There is no way that Marciano could have made 168 and been in good condition. He was a stocky guy who was in great shape. Look at him, there isn't any fat on him at all.
Not saying Marciano is the greatest of all time and he had no weaknesses.
But you have to look at the problems he would pose for the other guy.
Marciano was tougher than any of these guys.
He had phenomenal cardiovascular condition. He could keep throwing punches round after round without tiring. He had a great chin. These guys can't do that. He could wear them down. Just because you are tall and have a long reach doesn't mean you automatically have a great jab and can keep a relentless guy off of you. A guy like Joshua who doesn't really know how to fight wouldn't be able to do that.

these guys who make light heavy today at 190 on fight night are absolutely shredded and in good shape too

by current standards, rocky was the size of a very stubby light heavy. that's a factor facing legit sized world class heavies