BoxRec

It's probably been done many times but I'd be interested to know what boxrec thinks Ali's defences might have been following Zora Foley in 67.

The defences would go on, until Frazier appeared and did like it had actually been.

Without a layoff, Frazier would have been just another title defense by Ali.
A Foreman matchup would have been more interesting as perhaps George wouldn't have felt invincible and had such pressure on him.

For years I'd heard that Ali was supposed to rematch Floyd Patterson in April 1967, but I think that turned out to be just the hope of the latter's promotional team. There's a Reuters report from March 24, 1967 where Ali's management said he was signed to fight Oscar Bonavena in Tokyo that May. The same article quoted Thad Spencer's trainer in claiming that his fighter was getting a shot in July.

Leotis Martin (if he wasn't injured) and Buster Mathis would've been in the mix. Rematches with Karl Mildenberger and George Chuvalo were possibilities. Bob Foster, as light heavy champ, ends up in there, too.

The big ones would've been Jerry Quarry (yeah, the White Hope crap would've sold big at that time) and Joe Frazier. While I'm tempted to think that Frazier wouldn't have been as successful against Ali without the latter's layoff, there are two scenarios that could've led us pretty much back where we ended in real life.

1. Frazier loses, but works his way back into contention and beats Ali in a rematch. Joe drops the belt to Foreman, who loses to Ali, who TKOs Frazier in a rubber match.

2. Ali is so burnt out by his many title defenses that Frazier beats him in their first fight. We pretty much follow history as it was in the real world, excepting Ali's fights with Chuvalo and Patterson in '72. In this version of the world, Muhammad already beat those guys twice and nobody is clamoring for trilogies.

The bottom line is that Ali/Frazier/Foreman still rise above the pack and still end up recognized for their greatness.

Ironically, I suspect that the biggest changes would be in matters that we normally wouldn't contemplate. Ali became an international hero because his principles cost him everything at one point. His out-of-the ring significance probably diminishes if he keeps the title.

Secondly, what of the light heavyweight division? As you can see from the above, I think Foster is a titleholder, but if Ali keeps fighting from '67-'70, doesn't Jimmy Ellis stay at 175? Ellis could've been a force there.

Since all of this is utter speculation, nobody can be right or wrong. But it's certainly interesting to contemplate.

Would there have been a third Liston bout ?

goose 5 wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 12:03 Would there have been a third Liston bout ?

Highly doubtful. Liston wasn't in the contenders' spot after the Ali losses and barely he would fight again a guy, against whom he was rolling on the floor to get counted.

Liston was also so unpopular that it was doubtful he would get another chance. He wasn't even allowed in the WBA tournament.

I don't see how we can assume that Ali would burnt from so many title defenses. How do we know that would happen?

He certainly would have been a better fighter in March of 1971 when he fought Frazier the first time. Given that he gave Frazier all that could handle. it stands to reason that he would have beaten Frazier.
Actually, he probably would have fought much Frazier sooner. Most likely in 1968. Probably again in another year or two.
He probably would have only fought Frazier twice; there would not have been a 3rd fight if he successfully defended the title against him twice.
Probably never would have lost to Norton either.
Maybe Frazier and Norton would need a big win at some point and fought each other; the big fight that we missed out on.

It's entirely possible that he would have just chopped up one challenger after another until at least the mid-1970s. As it was, he was still the best heavyweight in the world in 1974-1975.

Of course had he been allowed to fight, it would set off a chain reaction regarding the the other fighters. He may have defended the title against Chuvalo and Patterson sooner. Maybe Leotis Martin gets another shot. Maybe somebody like Bob Cleroux would have got a shot; and therefore be better known than he is.

It really is sheer speculation of course.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 12:12 Liston was also so unpopular that it was doubtful he would get another chance. He wasn't even allowed in the WBA tournament.

I don't see how we can assume that Ali would burnt from so many title defenses. How do we know that would happen?

He certainly would have been a better fighter in March of 1971 when he fought Frazier the first time. Given that he gave Frazier all that could handle. it stands to reason that he would have beaten Frazier.
Actually, he probably would have fought much Frazier sooner. Most likely in 1968. Probably again in another year or two.
He probably would have only fought Frazier twice; there would not have been a 3rd fight if he successfully defended the title against him twice.
Probably never would have lost to Norton either.
Maybe Frazier and Norton would need a big win at some point and fought each other; the big fight that we missed out on.

It's entirely possible that he would have just chopped up one challenger after another until at least the mid-1970s. As it was, he was still the best heavyweight in the world in 1974-1975.

Of course had he been allowed to fight, it would set off a chain reaction regarding the the other fighters. He may have defended the title against Chuvalo and Patterson sooner. Maybe Leotis Martin gets another shot. Maybe somebody like Bob Cleroux would have got a shot; and therefore be better known than he is.

It really is sheer speculation of course.

All we know is that without the layoff Ali would have never lost a single fight and that he would have retired undefeated in 1980 after knocking out Holmes in four rounds.

hhaehre wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 14:05

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 12:12 Liston was also so unpopular that it was doubtful he would get another chance. He wasn't even allowed in the WBA tournament.

I don't see how we can assume that Ali would burnt from so many title defenses. How do we know that would happen?

He certainly would have been a better fighter in March of 1971 when he fought Frazier the first time. Given that he gave Frazier all that could handle. it stands to reason that he would have beaten Frazier.
Actually, he probably would have fought much Frazier sooner. Most likely in 1968. Probably again in another year or two.
He probably would have only fought Frazier twice; there would not have been a 3rd fight if he successfully defended the title against him twice.
Probably never would have lost to Norton either.
Maybe Frazier and Norton would need a big win at some point and fought each other; the big fight that we missed out on.

It's entirely possible that he would have just chopped up one challenger after another until at least the mid-1970s. As it was, he was still the best heavyweight in the world in 1974-1975.

Of course had he been allowed to fight, it would set off a chain reaction regarding the the other fighters. He may have defended the title against Chuvalo and Patterson sooner. Maybe Leotis Martin gets another shot. Maybe somebody like Bob Cleroux would have got a shot; and therefore be better known than he is.

It really is sheer speculation of course.

All we know is that without the layoff Ali would have never lost a single fight and that he would have retired undefeated in 1980 after knocking out Holmes in four rounds.

hhaehre wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 14:05

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 12:12 Liston was also so unpopular that it was doubtful he would get another chance. He wasn't even allowed in the WBA tournament.

I don't see how we can assume that Ali would burnt from so many title defenses. How do we know that would happen?

He certainly would have been a better fighter in March of 1971 when he fought Frazier the first time. Given that he gave Frazier all that could handle. it stands to reason that he would have beaten Frazier.
Actually, he probably would have fought much Frazier sooner. Most likely in 1968. Probably again in another year or two.
He probably would have only fought Frazier twice; there would not have been a 3rd fight if he successfully defended the title against him twice.
Probably never would have lost to Norton either.
Maybe Frazier and Norton would need a big win at some point and fought each other; the big fight that we missed out on.

It's entirely possible that he would have just chopped up one challenger after another until at least the mid-1970s. As it was, he was still the best heavyweight in the world in 1974-1975.

Of course had he been allowed to fight, it would set off a chain reaction regarding the the other fighters. He may have defended the title against Chuvalo and Patterson sooner. Maybe Leotis Martin gets another shot. Maybe somebody like Bob Cleroux would have got a shot; and therefore be better known than he is.

It really is sheer speculation of course.

All we know is that without the layoff Ali would have never lost a single fight and that he would have retired undefeated in 1980 after knocking out Holmes in four rounds.

Why the sarcasm?
From 1970 -1975, he went 20-2. The only losses were Frazier and Norton. He clearly wasn't as good as he was when he got banned in 1967. Is really far fetched to think he would have won those fights had he not had the long layoff? That he would also have won the other fights that he did win?

Seems like more of a leap of faith that he would have got "burnt out".

"Leap of faith?" Faith indicates hope. I don't hope for anybody to burn out, real life or otherwise.

With all due respect, you are mischaracterizing my analysis. As I noted, that was only one theory. I didn't say it was definite. I do, however, think it was a strong possibility.

Look at what happened in the real world. Ali should've wrapped it up after the third Frazier fight. Ali kept going. Ferdie Pacheco gave them solid medical evidence that he needed to retire after Shavers. Ali kept going. They had even more medical evidence that he shouldn't have fought Holmes. Ali kept going.

Ali's management team had a steady history of milking the cash cow, regardless of short term and long term effects. I don't doubt that they genuinely loved the man, but it didn't stop them from making decisions that were to his ultimate detriment.

Yes, I think there's a very good chance that they would've kept him on a (too) busy schedule against world class opposition that eventually would've worn him down. Even with that, though, you will note that I believe he would've regained the crown. I think Ali is the greatest heavyweight who ever lived, but everyone has their limits and he was no exception.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 16:45

hhaehre wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 14:05

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 12:12 Liston was also so unpopular that it was doubtful he would get another chance. He wasn't even allowed in the WBA tournament.

I don't see how we can assume that Ali would burnt from so many title defenses. How do we know that would happen?

He certainly would have been a better fighter in March of 1971 when he fought Frazier the first time. Given that he gave Frazier all that could handle. it stands to reason that he would have beaten Frazier.
Actually, he probably would have fought much Frazier sooner. Most likely in 1968. Probably again in another year or two.
He probably would have only fought Frazier twice; there would not have been a 3rd fight if he successfully defended the title against him twice.
Probably never would have lost to Norton either.
Maybe Frazier and Norton would need a big win at some point and fought each other; the big fight that we missed out on.

It's entirely possible that he would have just chopped up one challenger after another until at least the mid-1970s. As it was, he was still the best heavyweight in the world in 1974-1975.

Of course had he been allowed to fight, it would set off a chain reaction regarding the the other fighters. He may have defended the title against Chuvalo and Patterson sooner. Maybe Leotis Martin gets another shot. Maybe somebody like Bob Cleroux would have got a shot; and therefore be better known than he is.

It really is sheer speculation of course.

All we know is that without the layoff Ali would have never lost a single fight and that he would have retired undefeated in 1980 after knocking out Holmes in four rounds.

Why the sarcasm?
From 1970 -1975, he went 20-2. The only losses were Frazier and Norton. He clearly wasn't as good as he was when he got banned in 1967. Is really far fetched to think he would have won those fights had he not had the long layoff? That he would also have won the other fights that he did win?

Seems like more of a leap of faith that he would have got "burnt out".

Just fucking with ya.
The real question is if he could have come out of retirement in '88 and embarrassed Tyson. I say yes, hell yes.

hhaehre wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 18:01

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 16:45

hhaehre wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 14:05

All we know is that without the layoff Ali would have never lost a single fight and that he would have retired undefeated in 1980 after knocking out Holmes in four rounds.

Why the sarcasm?
From 1970 -1975, he went 20-2. The only losses were Frazier and Norton. He clearly wasn't as good as he was when he got banned in 1967. Is really far fetched to think he would have won those fights had he not had the long layoff? That he would also have won the other fights that he did win?

Seems like more of a leap of faith that he would have got "burnt out".

Just fucking with ya.
The real question is if he could have come out of retirement in '88 and embarrassed Tyson. I say yes, hell yes.

Now when I typed fornicate yesterday, it autocorrected to fornicate. What's your secret? How do you get by with your fornicating?

bwu wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 18:30

hhaehre wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 18:01

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 16:45
Why the sarcasm?
From 1970 -1975, he went 20-2. The only losses were Frazier and Norton. He clearly wasn't as good as he was when he got banned in 1967. Is really far fetched to think he would have won those fights had he not had the long layoff? That he would also have won the other fights that he did win?

Seems like more of a leap of faith that he would have got "burnt out".

Just fucking with ya.
The real question is if he could have come out of retirement in '88 and embarrassed Tyson. I say yes, hell yes.

Now when I typed fornicate yesterday, it autocorrected to fornicate. What's your secret? How do you get by with your fornicating?

BTW, the first fornicate and the final fornicating were not what I typed originally. What the fornicate?

bwu wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 18:31

bwu wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 18:30

hhaehre wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 18:01

Just fucking with ya.
The real question is if he could have come out of retirement in '88 and embarrassed Tyson. I say yes, hell yes.

Now when I typed fornicate yesterday, it autocorrected to fornicate. What's your secret? How do you get by with your fornicating?

BTW, the first fornicate and the final fornicating were not what I typed originally. What the fornicate?

Fornicate test:

fornicate
Fuck

bwu wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 18:30

hhaehre wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 18:01

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 16:45
Why the sarcasm?
From 1970 -1975, he went 20-2. The only losses were Frazier and Norton. He clearly wasn't as good as he was when he got banned in 1967. Is really far fetched to think he would have won those fights had he not had the long layoff? That he would also have won the other fights that he did win?

Seems like more of a leap of faith that he would have got "burnt out".

Just fucking with ya.
The real question is if he could have come out of retirement in '88 and embarrassed Tyson. I say yes, hell yes.

Now when I typed fornicate yesterday, it autocorrected to fornicate. What's your secret? How do you get by with your fornicating?

Bold text is the secret, fuck, shit, cunt

hhaehre wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 19:16

bwu wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 18:30

hhaehre wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 18:01

Just fucking with ya.
The real question is if he could have come out of retirement in '88 and embarrassed Tyson. I say yes, hell yes.

Now when I typed fornicate yesterday, it autocorrected to fornicate. What's your secret? How do you get by with your fornicating?

Bold text is the secret, fuck, shit, cunt

Now they'll recode to take the fun away.

Thank you my friends! You are scholars and gentlemen.

bwu wrote: ↑17 Jan 2022, 19:43 Thank you my friends! You are scholars and gentlemen.

No fucking problem, amigo!

funso banjo baby wrote: ↑16 Jan 2022, 16:52 It's probably been done many times but I'd be interested to know what boxrec thinks Ali's defences might have been following Zora Foley in 67.

- Been discussed ad infinitum on perhaps the biggest history thread ever, but after Folley, Ali and Cosell infamously arranged a defense signing vs Wilt that Ali backed out of on public TV. Lot's of pushback over that, but supposedly Herbert then arranged a defense vs Bonavena in Japan whom Frazier, Ring ranked since 1966, had already beat.

Then he planned on Thad Spencer who for whom I was never able figure out how he got ranked by Ring. Ali had been beating the 50s post Rocky holdovers as Joe started knocking out the 60s young'ns before Ali ever got to some of them. In 1968 Joe BTFO the undefeated Mathis who had beat Joe in the Olympic trials and whom Cus had made his next Ali project after Ali wisely turned down Wilt. Joe was Ring #1 from 67-69 while Nat refused to strip Ali of the Ring Belt.

Making Ali his next fight who later struggled mightily against a 2 years inactive Mathis sans D'Amato, I have to think Joe BTFO Ali like he did in 71.

Interesting in that Buster may have won the first World superheavy title promoted by Lew Eskin, he of the Jack Dempsey/Jack Johnson fame, when Buster knocked out Claude McBride in a collective 540 lbs of Ring beefsteak

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑18 Jan 2022, 09:51

funso banjo baby wrote: ↑16 Jan 2022, 16:52 It's probably been done many times but I'd be interested to know what boxrec thinks Ali's defences might have been following Zora Foley in 67.

- Been discussed ad infinitum on perhaps the biggest history thread ever, but after Folley, Ali and Cosell infamously arranged a defense signing vs Wilt that Ali backed out of on public TV. Lot's of pushback over that, but supposedly Herbert then arranged a defense vs Bonavena in Japan whom Frazier, Ring ranked since 1966, had already beat.

Then he planned on Thad Spencer who for whom I was never able figure out how he got ranked by Ring. Ali had been beating the 50s post Rocky holdovers as Joe started knocking out the 60s young'ns before Ali ever got to some of them. In 1968 Joe BTFO the undefeated Mathis who had beat Joe in the Olympic trials and whom Cus had made his next Ali project after Ali wisely turned down Wilt. Joe was Ring #1 from 67-69 while Nat refused to strip Ali of the Ring Belt.

Making Ali his next fight who later struggled mightily against a 2 years inactive Mathis sans D'Amato, I have to think Joe BTFO Ali like he did in 71.

Interesting in that Buster may have won the first World superheavy title promoted by Lew Eskin, he of the Jack Dempsey/Jack Johnson fame, when Buster knocked out Claude McBride in a collective 540 lbs of Ring beefsteak

Old threads bare repeating, especially since we always have newbies here with varying opinions who weren't around back then. Won't be the last resurrection of old topics.

read somewhere that Ali had planned to defend the title in 1967 against Thad Spencer in Accra Ghana in Africa.
( 7 years before the Rumble in the Jungle)

I always felt that Sonny Liston's long winning run after the second Ali loss was impressive for an old timer, he was still in Ring's top ten when he died.

But having browsed Floyd Patterson's post title record you have to say hats off....

It's amazing

For whatever reason Liston was fighting pretty weak comparison during that time.
Patterson on the other hand, was fighting some pretty good opponents. The win over Machen is probably his most underrated performance. The Chuvalo fight was a great fight. Beating Bonavena at that stage of his career was a good win as well.