BoxRec

So I just read through the International Hall of Fame book for the 3rd time, and I came upon several names that were definitely unworthy of the Hall of Fame.

One that stood out to me like a sore thumb after reading his profile was Jess Willard. Dude has like a 21-5-1 record or something like that. Once just quit and walked out of the ring because his opponent landed a stiff shot that he didn't like. He beat an aging Jack Johnson, didn't defend his title for 4 years, and when he did he suffered the Worst Beating in Heavyweight Title history at the hands of Dempsey.

It's almost like some guys they put in the Hall of Fame simply because they were a Champion a long time ago.

If we saw a guy like Willard today we'd laugh our asses off if anybody suggested him being a Hall of Famer.

I probably hold Willard in higher regard than you, but no, I don't think he should be in.

Here some others that I don't think have a decent case:

Jake Kilrain, Chalky Wright, He who shall not be named, Arturo Gatti, Tod Morgan, and James Braddock.
There are several guys lower weight classes that I am skeptical of.

Willard being in the HOF I think is more along the lines that he was the epitome of the Great White Hope era, so his inclusion is basically a representative of a collective time period.

For better or for worse one can make a serious argument that the Great White Hope era of boxing was when the sport was basically at its zenith in terms of popularity and participation.

Basically every able-bodied white man over 6 ft tall with a reputation of being a roughneck went into amateur or professional boxing in the hopes of becoming the heavyweight champion of the world.

Willard was the only one who succeeded where so many others had failed so his inclusion really is the final stamp on a wildly popular period in boxing history. That's why I think he's in the HOF.

It does make me wonder how boxing history would have gone had Luther McCarty not died at the age of 21, and whether he would have been the one to have beaten Jack Johnson and whether his athleticism and skills would have given Jack Dempsey problems because unlike Willard he was a more gifted giant.

Willard's only achievement in dethroning the HoFer after the long reign. Is this enough? Basically, no, but the HoF is also about an impact on the sport. Guys like Gatti obviously had more of an impact than achievements, that's why they are in. It's tough not to include a decent fighter with moderate achievements, when he is extremely popular. Did Willard make a huge impact on the sport of boxing? It's ambiguous. Back in his days he was just another 'white hope', which worked, but didn't last for long after the triumph. Decades after the 'white hope' status, of course, lost its initial sense due to the obvious shifts in life and society. So, by the modern (and even not so modern) perception Willard is just a guy with a single big win. Today he's known only by the hardcore boxing fans. I don't think the likes of Gatti will be forgotten like that.

Modern inductees, there is the obvious McGuigan that has since become the benchmark to allow other unworthy fighters to get in i.e. Gatti does not belong but hey if Barry M is there why not?

Vitali is unworthy. What's his defining win? He has none. At least Willard has one, just like Bowe.

Ricardo Lopez has a great record, but only one really good opponent and he needed the controversial wbc head butt rule to save face against him. The 3 years elmer spent revisiting his career in his thread showed how thin his resume was.

Very good shoutout with Braddock. He may have the worst record of any Hall of Famer. I forget the exact record, but it's like 38-25-3 or something.

And his one big win is Max Baer. He may have gotten a few noteworthy wins at Light Heavyweight, but I don't recall. I know he was plagued with hand injuries throughout his career.

The story of one of the biggest underdogs pulling off a huge win, and turning his life and fortunes around is a wonderful one, but as a fighter he's definitely not there.

Where are we all at on Ingemar Johansson?

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 Aug 2022, 12:13 Where are we all at on Ingemar Johansson?

Since Ingo deserved that along with Willard, why Buster Douglas didn't?

DrDuke wrote: ↑04 Aug 2022, 12:59

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 Aug 2022, 12:13 Where are we all at on Ingemar Johansson?

Since Ingo deserved that along with Willard, why Buster Douglas didn't?

That's a damn good question. Because Buster's achievement is superior to Braddock's in the eyes of most sports observers, and certainly as you say every bit as impressive as Ingo and Willard's title wins.

No doubt about it. by those standards he absolutely belongs.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 Aug 2022, 15:01

DrDuke wrote: ↑04 Aug 2022, 12:59

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 Aug 2022, 12:13 Where are we all at on Ingemar Johansson?

Since Ingo deserved that along with Willard, why Buster Douglas didn't?

That's a damn good question. Because Buster's achievement is superior to Braddock's in the eyes of most sports observers, and certainly as you say every bit as impressive as Ingo and Willard's title wins.

No doubt about it. by those standards he absolutely belongs.

Douglas has clearly done the bigger thing than any of the three.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 Aug 2022, 15:01

DrDuke wrote: ↑04 Aug 2022, 12:59

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 Aug 2022, 12:13 Where are we all at on Ingemar Johansson?

Since Ingo deserved that along with Willard, why Buster Douglas didn't?

That's a damn good question. Because Buster's achievement is superior to Braddock's in the eyes of most sports observers, and certainly as you say every bit as impressive as Ingo and Willard's title wins.

No doubt about it. by those standards he absolutely belongs.

"by those standards is the key phrase."

What people always overlook is that when voters go into vote, they aren't comparing Douglas to Willard or Johannson. Voters are comparing Douglas to other fighters who have not got in yet and are on the ballot.
Some years there are a lot of great fighters and some years not. There are windows of opportunities for the borderline guys.

Buster's win was the biggest. He also beat beat McCall, Berbick, and Page, which is more depth than Willard and Johansson as well. Ingo did beat Machen but there is a big dropoff after that. Buster should be rated higher than Ingo and a lot higher than Willard.

you know you can be in the Hall of Fame for other reasons and more then just your boxing skills.
( such as Historical context)
I think Jess Willard deserves to be in it.
because he was famous for defeating Jack Johnson for the title
and trying to defend it from Jack Dempsey.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Aug 2022, 15:51

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 Aug 2022, 15:01

DrDuke wrote: ↑04 Aug 2022, 12:59

Since Ingo deserved that along with Willard, why Buster Douglas didn't?

That's a damn good question. Because Buster's achievement is superior to Braddock's in the eyes of most sports observers, and certainly as you say every bit as impressive as Ingo and Willard's title wins.

No doubt about it. by those standards he absolutely belongs.

"by those standards is the key phrase."

What people always overlook is that when voters go into vote, they aren't comparing Douglas to Willard or Johannson. Voters are comparing Douglas to other fighters who have not got in yet and are on the ballot.
Some years there are a lot of great fighters and some years not. There are windows of opportunities for the borderline guys.

Buster's win was the biggest. He also beat beat McCall, Berbick, and Page, which is more depth than Willard and Johansson as well. Ingo did beat Machen but there is a big dropoff after that. Buster should be rated higher than Ingo and a lot higher than Willard.

In the case of Braddock, Willard and Johansson they were put in retroactively after their careers were long, long over. As I'm pretty sure the Hall of Fame didn't even exist until a good while after even Johansson had hung 'em up.

The standards were probably a little less stringent on some of them early entrants as they were just trying to put some names in the Hall.

Caractacus wrote: ↑04 Aug 2022, 19:38 you know you can be in the Hall of Fame for other reasons and more then just your boxing skills.
( such as Historical context)
I think Jess Willard deserves to be in it.
because he was famous for defeating Jack Johnson for the title
and trying to defend it from Jack Dempsey.

Buster Douglas by any measure certainly belongs for "The Biggest Upset in the History of Sports" does he not?

Would have to be up there.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑05 Aug 2022, 02:13

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Aug 2022, 15:51

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 Aug 2022, 15:01

That's a damn good question. Because Buster's achievement is superior to Braddock's in the eyes of most sports observers, and certainly as you say every bit as impressive as Ingo and Willard's title wins.

No doubt about it. by those standards he absolutely belongs.

"by those standards is the key phrase."

What people always overlook is that when voters go into vote, they aren't comparing Douglas to Willard or Johannson. Voters are comparing Douglas to other fighters who have not got in yet and are on the ballot.
Some years there are a lot of great fighters and some years not. There are windows of opportunities for the borderline guys.

Buster's win was the biggest. He also beat beat McCall, Berbick, and Page, which is more depth than Willard and Johansson as well. Ingo did beat Machen but there is a big dropoff after that. Buster should be rated higher than Ingo and a lot higher than Willard.

In the case of Braddock, Willard and Johansson they were put in retroactively after their careers were long, long over. As I'm pretty sure the Hall of Fame didn't even exist until a good while after even Johansson had hung 'em up.

The standards were probably a little less stringent on some of them early entrants as they were just trying to put some names in the Hall.

The International Boxing Hall of Fame started in 1990.

Johannson last fight was in 1963.

Only the real legends got in the first year. From 1990-1996, all of the picks were great fighters and nobody really questioned that the guy deserved it.

But they still have to keep adding people. They need Induction ceremonies which gets the Hall of Fame publicity.

It really started in 1997 when Chalky Wright got in. He has no business being in there, though for some reason no one questions it. Since then, in many years since, guys who are borderline or have a very weak case have got in.

The sort of mid-level heavyweight champions were now all in. (Schmeling, Baer, Sharkey, Walcott etc.) Then they looked top great black heavyweights who had never got a title shot (Wills, Jeannette, and McVey). All worthy. But then they felt the need to keep putting heavyweights in, so we then got:


2001 Jimmy Braddock
2002 Ingemar Johansson
2003 Jess Willard

Hell if Jess Willard is a Hall of Famer then f*cking Shannon Briggs is. That's about the level I'd put him at.

Ingo, Barry McGuigan they're some odd choices

There are some in the Old Timers section who were never more than a European or Regional Champion which seems a little odd.

McGuigan probably should not be in there, but his supporters will probably point out the win over Pedroza. There are certainly worse guys in there.

There several smaller fighters who are in there that nobody ever questions:
Sixto Escobar, Hilaro Zapata, Chang Jung Koo, Yoko Gushiken, Maso Ohba. How often does anyone ever talk about these guys?

Seems like the one constant is that if you have a lot of title defenses (regardless of the quality of competition) they will put you in. Quantity over quality.

As for some of the guys from way back who were never a world champion, I guess it depends on specifically who you are talking about.
Some probably should not be in there, but some should be.
We have to take into account how much harder it was to win a world title way back when there was usually only man recognized as the champion, and less weight classes. There were great fighters who never won a world title; sometimes they didn't get a title shot, sometimes there happened to be another great fighter at the same time who was even better.

Gushiken deserves to be in if only for the haircut.

These guys should be in:
Rafael Herrera
Ernesto "Nato" Marcel
Jose Luis Ramirez
Wilfredo Vazquez
Howard Winstone

These guys should not be in:
Barry McGuigan
Jess Willard
Arturo Gatti

C'mon Ingemar Johansson was famous.
He became HW Champion before I was even born
and I heard of him in the late 1960's and 1970's.
Non-Famous people don't usually get a book deal
SECONDS OUT OF THE RING
or have a cameos in major movies.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑05 Aug 2022, 17:47 These guys should be in:
Rafael Herrera
Ernesto "Nato" Marcel
Jose Luis Ramirez
Wilfredo Vazquez
Howard Winstone

These guys should not be in:
Barry McGuigan
Jess Willard
Arturo Gatti

You forgot Santos Laciar, who should have been in a decade ago

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Aug 2022, 15:53 McGuigan probably should not be in there, but his supporters will probably point out the win over Pedroza. There are certainly worse guys in there.

There several smaller fighters who are in there that nobody ever questions:
Sixto Escobar, Hilaro Zapata, Chang Jung Koo, Yoko Gushiken, Maso Ohba. How often does anyone ever talk about these guys?

Seems like the one constant is that if you have a lot of title defenses (regardless of the quality of competition) they will put you in. Quantity over quality.

Um, of the five your mention, only Zapata won titles in two weight classes. Never saw Escobar, but the other four were long-time belt holders back when there were two belts a division, and in the case of Jung Koo, Gushiken and Ohba, they were dominant in their divisions. Their credentials are far better than a lot of heavier fighters in the hall. The bigger question is why more light fighters aren’t in (such as longtime two-division champion Santos Laciar, who beat Zapata and was a belt holder for the better part of six years)

If you are a heavyweight you get in for winning one fight (Willard, Braddock, Johansson). If you are a flyweight and win a belt and make 5-10 defenses and win significant fights in your division you don’t deserve it because most fans in the US never heard of you

Good post !