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Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 16 Aug 2022, 19:34
by elmersalsa
A poster boy of tough and rugged fighters, Gene Fullmer, who was twice World Boxing Middleweight Champion (1957, NBA World in 1959-62).
Fought the very best Welterweights and middleweights of his era.
He retired in 1963.
Is he the Last White American pound per pound all-time great boxer?
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 16 Aug 2022, 20:20
by klompton
No, and he was never a pound per pound all time great to begin with
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 16 Aug 2022, 20:22
by goose 5
Giardello was better and he retired in 1967.
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 16 Aug 2022, 22:19
by DrDuke
Oh my, it looks like elmer will never stop bringing this oddball slogan from a one thread to another.
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 17 Aug 2022, 09:27
by HomicideHenry
I suppose it depends on what you classify as being an all-time great. He is certainly one of the greatest middleweights of all time. It kind of blows my mind in a way how people diminish the man on this forum considering he was in the mold of a Rocky Marciano type--- meaning that hard work and determination got him over the hump. The man had tremendous conditioning and toughness which carried him over to defeat superior (skill wise) opponents.
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 17 Aug 2022, 13:45
by Caractacus
well, Who was the last "White" ,"American" Boxer entered into the Boxing Hall of Fame ?
( and do they really deserve to be in there IYOP) ?
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 17 Aug 2022, 15:45
by HomicideHenry
Defining a white person is easy enough defining an American is something altogether different considering certain people like Wladimir Klitschko is I believe an American citizen considering he owns a home down in Florida. He was inducted in 2021.
Now if the question is American born that's when it gets a little more trickier. Are we strictly talking about the 50 US states or are we also including territories of America around the world?
And are we to include women boxers who are in the Hall of Fame such as Holly Holm, who is certainly white and American-born and has a good argument for being one of the top five all-time greatest women boxers ever up until this point?
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 17 Aug 2022, 15:49
by Ambling Alp II
Tod Morgan would be the last White American who entered the IBHOF.
Don't think that is who he was looking for. I think Ray Mancini was the white American Inductee who has fought the most recently.
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 17 Aug 2022, 17:04
by Caractacus
I think there was some question here a couple years ago, if
Gene Fullmer
was even actually a 'All-Time Great " himself.
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 17 Aug 2022, 17:23
by Caractacus
Joey Archer ( A White-American) Boxer of that same era was pretty good too.
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 17 Aug 2022, 22:58
by elmersalsa
Well, in my view, I have not seen a great white fighter born in America in my lifetime.
The great Gene Fullmer got THE CREDENTIALS to be included in the top 100 greatest boxers pound per pound ever.
He beat a colossal line of great fighters from welterweight to middleweight. A great resume to say the least.
White fighters born in America like Jerry Quarry, Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini, Mike Rossman, Sean O'Grady, Greg Haugen, Vinny Pazienzia, Billy Backus, Gene Hatcher, Bobby Cysz and others come to mind, were good but they were not in Fullmer's level.
Did the quality of great white American fighters declined after his retirement in 1963?
What really happened? Before Fullmer, there were great white American fighters like Jake LaMotta, Tony Zale, Carmen Basilio, Rocky Marciano, Gene Tunney, Willie Pep, Billy Conn, Harry Greb and even Jack Dempsey.
The quality got lower and lower. Right now, there's no white American fighters that were as good or great as Fullmer.
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 18 Aug 2022, 09:36
by Jaywheel
ODLH.
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 18 Aug 2022, 10:49
by elmersalsa
He is not white American. He is a chicano
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 18 Aug 2022, 12:30
by Jaywheel
Mancini is italo, what's your point?
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 18 Aug 2022, 12:32
by Jaywheel
Lol you named Pazienza and Mancini just before...
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 18 Aug 2022, 13:42
by Caractacus
well, I think after World War II, the "ethnic" White communities
prior to that, they started moving out of the big cities and intergrating.
there were once in the USA ,totally Jewish neigbourhoods, Irish neighbourhoods, Italian Neighbourhoods, etc etc.
and they were all in competion with each other.
Did you know that Harlem NYC use to be a entirely "White"(but ethnic) Community
prior to 1920 ?
How many White people do you see living there now ?
The Bronx use to be a White Community too up until the beginning of the mid-1960's or so
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 18 Aug 2022, 17:33
by DrDuke
By 'white' heritage people usually mean European heritage. The Latin American heritage can't be seen there in contrast to the Italian one. However, the modern Southern Europeans are quite mixed with the Middle Eastern people, so they aren't very 'white'.
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 18 Aug 2022, 17:55
by Caractacus
It would be interesting to know when and how the demographics changed
in the areas of the large cities
that boxers such as Tony Zale (Gary Indiana)
Rocky Graziano (Brooklyn), Jake LaMotta, (Bronx) Willie Pep (Hartford,CT)
from when they trained there back in the 1940's.
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 18 Aug 2022, 18:00
by Caractacus
DrDuke wrote: ↑18 Aug 2022, 17:33
By 'white' heritage people usually mean European heritage. The Latin American heritage can't be seen there in contrast to the Italian one. However, the modern Southern Europeans are quite mixed with the Middle Eastern people, so they aren't very 'white'.
you be surprised how many people of "Middle-Eastern" hertiage
also have Greek and Italian genomes from the ancient days of when the Greek and Roman Empires
were stretched out over into Asia Minor and North Africa some 2,000 years ago..
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 18 Aug 2022, 18:31
by HomicideHenry
DrDuke wrote: ↑18 Aug 2022, 17:33
By 'white' heritage people usually mean European heritage. The Latin American heritage can't be seen there in contrast to the Italian one. However, the modern Southern Europeans are quite mixed with the Middle Eastern people, so they aren't very 'white'.
I tend to disagree with the Latin American heritage not being seen as white because there are a lot of dynamics in Mexico and other Spanish speaking countries where the light colored and the dark colored Hispanics are seen and treated differently.
Most of the presidents of Mexico have been from old Spanish stock where they are light-skinned like Vicente Fox, etc--- and the light skinned Hispanics are generally seen as being European because quite frankly they did come from European ancestry.
Where it gets murky is the dark-skinned Hispanics who are really from Native American stock but just happen to speak Spanish. Of course not all Native Americans who speak Spanish are dark complected like Danny "Little Red" Lopez who wore headdresses and he was ginger-haired, but for the most part most dark complected Hispanics come from Native American stock.
Caucasian is really a broad spectrum that includes Jews and Arabs and Indians and some groups of Asians. It's not just a European thing. But yes when people usually say white they generally mean people from Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, England, Scotland, France, Germany, and most of Scandinavia.
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 18 Aug 2022, 18:39
by Caractacus
from "North of the Alps" huh ?
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 19 Aug 2022, 00:10
by elmersalsa
Jaywheel wrote: ↑18 Aug 2022, 12:30
Mancini is italo, what's your point?
He's white. Oscar de la Hoya is not.
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 19 Aug 2022, 00:20
by DrDuke
Caractacus wrote: ↑18 Aug 2022, 18:00
DrDuke wrote: ↑18 Aug 2022, 17:33
By 'white' heritage people usually mean European heritage. The Latin American heritage can't be seen there in contrast to the Italian one. However, the modern Southern Europeans are quite mixed with the Middle Eastern people, so they aren't very 'white'.
you be surprised how many people of "Middle-Eastern" hertiage
also have Greek and Italian genomes from the ancient days of when the Greek and Roman Empires
were stretched out over into Asia Minor and North Africa some 2,000 years ago..
Nothing surprising here. The Mediterranean area had all conditions for different people mixing with each other.
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 19 Aug 2022, 00:25
by elmersalsa
Gene Fullmer fought and beat the very best Welterweight and middleweight opposition in his career, and beat the majority of them.
Among his greatest wins:
WKO10 Benny "Kid" Paret
W15 Florentino Fernandez
W15 Ellsworth "Spider" Webb
W15 Sugar Ray Robinson (twice)
W10 Gil Turner (twice)
W10 Paul Pender
W10 Del Flanagan
W10 Rocky Castellani
W10 Wilf Greaves
W10 Ralph "Tiger Jones
WTKO14 Carmen Basilio
That's a heck of a resume.
Re: Gene Fullmer: Is He the Last Great All-time White American Boxer?
Posted: 19 Aug 2022, 00:28
by DrDuke
HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Aug 2022, 18:31
DrDuke wrote: ↑18 Aug 2022, 17:33
By 'white' heritage people usually mean European heritage. The Latin American heritage can't be seen there in contrast to the Italian one. However, the modern Southern Europeans are quite mixed with the Middle Eastern people, so they aren't very 'white'.
I tend to disagree with the Latin American heritage not being seen as white because there are a lot of dynamics in Mexico and other Spanish speaking countries where the light colored and the dark colored Hispanics are seen and treated differently.
Most of the presidents of Mexico have been from old Spanish stock where they are light-skinned like Vicente Fox, etc--- and the light skinned Hispanics are generally seen as being European because quite frankly they did come from European ancestry.
Where it gets murky is the dark-skinned Hispanics who are really from Native American stock but just happen to speak Spanish. Of course not all Native Americans who speak Spanish are dark complected like Danny "Little Red" Lopez who wore headdresses and he was ginger-haired, but for the most part most dark complected Hispanics come from Native American stock.
Caucasian is really a broad spectrum that includes Jews and Arabs and Indians and some groups of Asians. It's not just a European thing. But yes when people usually say white they generally mean people from Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, England, Scotland, France, Germany, and most of Scandinavia.
Sure, since the Latin America is highly mixed historically, there can be people who more or less managed to preserve their European heritage, but generally it's not hard to differ the Hispanic people from the 'white' ones.
'Caucasian' shouldn't be equaled to 'European'. It's an umbrella term for several types of populations, who, by the theory, stretched from the one area to the others, where they established their own features.