Prospect vs Journeymen

keithmoonhangover
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Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by keithmoonhangover »

5-0 against 3-51-1.

Is this an important part of a boxer's development? Is the journeyman trying his best with limited skills? Or..... is the journeyman not trying to win, while doing his best not to get knocked out?
iestynvenables
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by iestynvenables »

Imo the uk over uses this opponents, career journeymen who dont fight back . I dont think how much learn from these types of fight. In the US i find the prospects opponents try and win, and even thou they might be limited, the prospect will learn more because they need to adapt to the opponents punches.
maverick23
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by maverick23 »

keithmoonhangover wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 08:57 5-0 against 3-51-1.

Is this an important part of a boxer's development? Is the journeyman trying his best with limited skills? Or..... is the journeyman not trying to win, while doing his best not to get knocked out?
A journeyman with a record like that is almost always not trying to win. Just to survive.

As a minimum for me an opponent should be trying to win at the start otherwise it’s no longer a sport. It’s an exhibition.

I’m not saying prospects should be matched 50/50 straight away but someone in their 6th fight should be fighting someone who is trying to win.
Phenomenal-Nutrition
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by Phenomenal-Nutrition »

It's actually an unwritten rule that the journeyman doesn't try to win in order for him to get more paydays. It's been a thing for a long long time where people look at the numbers of Chavez or Marciano's wins instead of the quality of most of them.

I suppose a few of these maybe good to get a boxer used to boxing in front of crowds before they get pushed by a live body
Dioufy
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by Dioufy »

After 10 pro fights if you have a losing record then to continue to be a license owner you will need to be a ring guy/girl until you get to winning records.
nobleart1978
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by nobleart1978 »

local british fight cards are all like this now.
value for money is nil.
six local lads on the left side of a bill vs six latvians who have no intention of winning on the right.
promoters charging 45 quid to get in or 75 quid for a roast beff dinner. absolute joke.
I don't know how these promoters make any money on these shows.
Dioufy
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by Dioufy »

I’m sure I’ve seen a journeymen recently fighting on a British card that had something like a 0-33 record.
Glass Joe
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by Glass Joe »

Spud
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by Spud »

keithmoonhangover wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 08:57 5-0 against 3-51-1.

Is this an important part of a boxer's development? Is the journeyman trying his best with limited skills? Or..... is the journeyman not trying to win, while doing his best not to get knocked out?
Not really.

However the prospect v the journeyman is very useful for the promoter building up interest in a fighter.

Theres only a very small percentage of pepple who know anything about boxing, do when the prospect wins the gullible public think they have seen something sensational.

So, as you will see on interviews the propect is constantly asking for higher ranked fights where as the promoter wants the fans to keep comung through the doors.
keithmoonhangover
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by keithmoonhangover »

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 10:51 where people look at the numbers of Chavez or Marciano's wins instead of the quality of most of them.
Marciano didn't fight anyone with a record like 3-51-1 and Chavez didn't either, although he did get a few easy ones and a debutant after 40 fights.
wrighty
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by wrighty »

I knew a journeymen called Liam Richards who fought Nathanael Wilson. He started off as a contender and won the British Masters title. I think he became a journeyman as he got quite good money. He's a tough lad and a nice fella. He fought one of the Walsh brothers two weights below his optimum weight for a title if I remember.
1135544
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by 1135544 »

I think the Hobson/Crump shows are a typical of this, same journeymen, same 40 - 36 or 60 - 54 scorecards week after week.

However I think he took it too far with the recent Perry Howe vs Erik Nazaryan WBF 'title' fight, which predictably ended with a 100 - 90 scorecard.

Nazaryan was coming off four straight defeats, two inside schedule and one of those to a debutant, given his record and the dreadful shape he was in putting him in a ten rounder was potentially dangerous, it's only because Howe is equally dire the bloke came away unscathed.

Nazaryan has been back to the UK twice since and he's lost both.
nobleart1978
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by nobleart1978 »

The thing is, every journeyman I have ever spoken too says they cudda been this, that or the other.
Bit like everyone cuuda bin a footballer if they hadn't got "injured."
1135544
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by 1135544 »

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 10:51 It's actually an unwritten rule that the journeyman doesn't try to win in order for him to get more paydays.
You only have to look at Lewis Van Poetsch (who's decided to have a go at winning in his last year) he was fighting practically every week a couple of months back, but after winning three (two inside distance) and drawing one out of six (the draw was dodgy as was the loss to Ben Burnham) he had three fights cancelled, didn't fight for a month and now he isn't down to box until Feb.
iestyn500
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by iestyn500 »

Spud wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 12:22
keithmoonhangover wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 08:57 5-0 against 3-51-1.

Is this an important part of a boxer's development? Is the journeyman trying his best with limited skills? Or..... is the journeyman not trying to win, while doing his best not to get knocked out?
Not really.

However the prospect v the journeyman is very useful for the promoter building up interest in a fighter.

Theres only a very small percentage of pepple who know anything about boxing, do when the prospect wins the gullible public think they have seen something sensational.

So, as you will see on interviews the propect is constantly asking for higher ranked fights where as the promoter wants the fans to keep comung through the doors.
That would be true if the opponent got stopped but in most of the fights the journeymen man will try and survive so quite often the a fighter can't land punches clean
iestyn500
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by iestyn500 »

Spud wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 12:22
keithmoonhangover wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 08:57 5-0 against 3-51-1.

Is this an important part of a boxer's development? Is the journeyman trying his best with limited skills? Or..... is the journeyman not trying to win, while doing his best not to get knocked out?
Not really.

However the prospect v the journeyman is very useful for the promoter building up interest in a fighter.

Theres only a very small percentage of pepple who know anything about boxing, do when the prospect wins the gullible public think they have seen something sensational.

So, as you will see on interviews the propect is constantly asking for higher ranked fights where as the promoter wants the fans to keep comung through the doors.
That would be true if the opponent got stopped but in most of the fights the journeymen man will try and survive so quite often the a fighter can't land punches clean
keithmoonhangover wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 08:57 5-0 against 3-51-1.

Is this an important part of a boxer's development? Is the journeyman trying his best with limited skills? Or..... is the journeyman not trying to win, while doing his best not to get knocked out?
imo for development the journeymen needs to punch more because the a side doesn't learn much from someone who does n't fight back, You dont see this in america for their prospect they try and win even if they are limited and get stopped.
GreenLightning
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by GreenLightning »

You need these types

Son just fought Dennis McCann

KiwiRider
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by KiwiRider »

Does it actually help young fighters after ten or so fights?
Josh Taylor didn't mess about with a heap of cans.
Personally I think increasing levels of challenges is the way forward.
Careful matchmaking and not worrying about a loss here and there.
maley1984
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by maley1984 »

wrighty wrote: 24 Nov 2022, 13:53 I knew a journeymen called Liam Richards who fought Nathanael Wilson. He started off as a contender and won the British Masters title. I think he became a journeyman as he got quite good money. He's a tough lad and a nice fella. He fought one of the Walsh brothers two weights below his optimum weight for a title if I remember.
Liam is still doing the rounds. He did box for the masters title but lost on points (I was at the fight in Wolverhampton). Just after that he fought Ryan walsh for English title. Seen him box as high as welter tough tough lad
wrighty
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by wrighty »

Thoroughly nice bloke. I know Stuart Greener too. He's tough. There was a fella in their gym called Gareth Heard also who was handy. Same gym that Nick Blackwell started at. I wish there was more promotion in the south west for fighters. It feels like they just get fed to prospects.
Glass Joe
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by Glass Joe »

wrighty wrote: 05 Dec 2022, 07:17 Thoroughly nice bloke. I know Stuart Greener too. He's tough. There was a fella in their gym called Gareth Heard also who was handy. Same gym that Nick Blackwell started at. I wish there was more promotion in the south west for fighters. It feels like they just get fed to prospects.
Rare TV shows in the south-west. Just awful one-sided ticket Sanigar shows.
wrighty
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by wrighty »

It's a pity. You had good amateurs like Mike Rose and Craig Ryder, that Okane lad had rave reviews etc. How do you build up a good scene without your lads just being fed to Warren prospects though?
Wales
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by Wales »

It’s solely down to boxing as a sport being obsessed with seeing fighters with lots of wins and inflated records. It’s almost a culture the sport has. Pundits preach “you learn more from a defeat” but promoters and TV outlets want undefeated talent. As a result the paying public get either young prospect vs serial loser or are sold prospect vs foreigner with big winning record on paper but fail to mention all the wins have been against absolute tea pots.

As for the argument “journeymen teach the young kids so much in the ring” - well why not have them in the gym for sparring but when it comes to real shows where the paying public are handing over money to watch a competitive sport have fighters that want to win fight each other . The winner moves on the loser learns and goes back to the drawing board to come again.


Connor Mcgreggor made his ufc debut with a professional record of 22-6.

Ricky Hatton was 38-0 when he fought Tszyu having never faced a top 10 140lb fighter.

Guys with records of 12 wins 279 loses ???? 4% win record
Ruthless-RKO
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by Ruthless-RKO »

Wales wrote: 05 Dec 2022, 23:35 It’s solely down to boxing as a sport being obsessed with seeing fighters with lots of wins and inflated records. It’s almost a culture the sport has. Pundits preach “you learn more from a defeat” but promoters and TV outlets want undefeated talent. As a result the paying public get either young prospect vs serial loser or are sold prospect vs foreigner with big winning record on paper but fail to mention all the wins have been against absolute tea pots.

As for the argument “journeymen teach the young kids so much in the ring” - well why not have them in the gym for sparring but when it comes to real shows where the paying public are handing over money to watch a competitive sport have fighters that want to win fight each other . The winner moves on the loser learns and goes back to the drawing board to come again.


Connor Mcgreggor made his ufc debut with a professional record of 22-6.

Ricky Hatton was 38-0 when he fought Tszyu having never faced a top 10 140lb fighter.

Guys with records of 12 wins 279 loses ???? 4% win record
McGregor was 12-2 when he made his UFC debut.
olij999
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Re: Prospect vs Journeymen

Post by olij999 »

I've said before, I don't criticise the journeymen in this - if I were in their position, I'd do exactly the same. But Britain is the only country that has this problem, i.e. journeymen with 4-100-2 type records, always losing 40-36 or 60-54. And, before anyone says it, it wasn't the same in the 50s, 60s, 70s - there's no data I've seen to support that. Refs need to enforce the rule that not trying is a foul, so that both fighters actually throw punches. Otherwise it is nothing more than a glorified spar.
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