BoxRec

James Douglas who beat Mike Tyson in Tokyo versus Muhammad Ali... 12 rounds... who do you got?

I got Ali.

Douglas gives him a hard time. As he is a bigger, stronger guy, and has more pop, but ultimately his style of fighting is quite similar to Ali's and Ali is better at it. Faster. More accurate with his punches. More sharp with his defense. More difficult to hurt. Better stamina. Better conditioning.

That being said, I think it'd take until the very end of a very hard fought bout to sap the energy out of THIS Douglas.

But yeah. I think Ali would wind up taking an 8 rounds to 4 or 7 rounds to 5 against Douglas.

In a 15 rounder, he'd stop him.

Douglas looked like a textbook boxing machine that night, but he had been preparing for the aggressive puncher, so his win that night didn't necessarily tell, that Douglas could handle absolutely anybody, including a great outfighter. So, obviously Ali got more credibility to be favored here.

Peak Ali barely took a punch. Buster was amazing that night, but he wouldn't beat Ali.

Either Ali get the decision after outboxing Douglas in their best shape or Ali stops him late under the 15 rounds rule.

Douglas was a machine that night and would of been a handful for any heavyweight.
That being said Ali still wins a ud.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑15 Jan 2023, 09:47 Peak Ali barely took a punch. Buster was amazing that night, but he wouldn't beat Ali.

Tell it to Chuvalo and Frazier.

DrDuke wrote: ↑15 Jan 2023, 23:50

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑15 Jan 2023, 09:47 Peak Ali barely took a punch. Buster was amazing that night, but he wouldn't beat Ali.

Tell it to Chuvalo and Frazier.

They'll claim Ali was not in his prime for Frazier and claim Ali purposely allowed Chuvalo to hit him.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 00:28

DrDuke wrote: ↑15 Jan 2023, 23:50

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑15 Jan 2023, 09:47 Peak Ali barely took a punch. Buster was amazing that night, but he wouldn't beat Ali.

Tell it to Chuvalo and Frazier.

They'll claim Ali was not in his prime for Frazier and claim Ali purposely allowed Chuvalo to hit him.

So let them entertain us, if they want.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 00:28

DrDuke wrote: ↑15 Jan 2023, 23:50

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑15 Jan 2023, 09:47 Peak Ali barely took a punch. Buster was amazing that night, but he wouldn't beat Ali.

Tell it to Chuvalo and Frazier.

They'll claim Ali was not in his prime for Frazier and claim Ali purposely allowed Chuvalo to hit him.

The thing is, you're measuring Buster in the one fight where he was at his absolute peak. You're not doing that with Ali.

To be clear, I don't think anyone is actually saying that Douglas would have beaten the Ali of the Chuvalo fight.

Ali's apex was the Cleveland William's fight. No one can beat that Ali.

On the issue, Buster on his best night would be a good fight for anyone.

irongloves wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 17:32 Ali's apex was the Cleveland William's fight. No one can beat that Ali.

On the issue, Buster on his best night would be a good fight for anyone.

I think the Cleveland Williams fight is overblown considering all the facts indicate that Williams was well past his best when he fought Muhammad Ali. It's not a good indicator of just how good or great Muhammad Ali was. Other fights that came before or after Cleveland Williams are better indicators.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 16:46 To be clear, I don't think anyone is actually saying that Douglas would have beaten the Ali of the Chuvalo fight.

Well just to make it interesting the Douglas of the Tokyo fight versus the Muhammad Ali of the Chuvalo fight, will be the target. Muhammad Ali during the 1969 super fight with Rocky Marciano wanted to claim that he deliberately allowed the Canadian to beat him to the stomach and the sides because the criticism was that he looked like crap against Chuvalo.

I think the truth is it was the first time that Muhammad Ali really ever fought a man who was rough and tumble, and since Muhammad Ali was not a good infighter he looked less than great.

irongloves wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 17:32 Ali's apex was the Cleveland William's fight. No one can beat that Ali.

The most popular wet dream of the Ali fans, as if Williams was somehow close to a great fighter.

DrDuke wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 20:01

irongloves wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 17:32 Ali's apex was the Cleveland William's fight. No one can beat that Ali.

The most popular wet dream of the Ali fans, as if Williams was somehow close to a great fighter.

It is more to do with the supreme mastery of the ring Ali showed against a good opponent. He lost his absolute peak to exile so we can only reference the nearest actual fight we have.

irongloves wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 04:04

DrDuke wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 20:01

irongloves wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 17:32 Ali's apex was the Cleveland William's fight. No one can beat that Ali.

The most popular wet dream of the Ali fans, as if Williams was somehow close to a great fighter.

It is more to do with the supreme mastery of the ring Ali showed against a good opponent. He lost his absolute peak to exile so we can only reference the nearest actual fight we have.

He couldn't lose his peak during that period, since he was healthy and fit. Tough fights and preparations to them take it from you. Some time off only gave him a little bit of ring-rust, but he got an opportunity to get rid of it before Frazier. It's just Smokin' Joe, who was too hard for Ali.

Oh come on.
Ai was off for more than 3 and half years. That is a very long time. Then in 4 months he was taking on Joe Frazier, one of the greatest heavyweights of all time.
Frazier was too good at that time. What happened when he fought Frazier again? He won.
He was never going to be 100% after that layoff. However, after several fights, he starting was able to get rid of the ring rust.

Simply watching Ali vs Frazier (or Bonavena for that matter) it is obvious that he was much slower with his hands, he couldn't move as well as he once did. He also didn't have the stamina of his prime.
Compare that to his fights in his prime where he has blazing hand speed, moving around a lot, and hardly seemed to get tired.
The difference is clear as day.

I always thought he had hell with Bonavena. I've watched that fight a few times, and I actually had it 7 rounds to 7 coming to the 15th.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 12:05 Oh come on.
Ai was off for more than 3 and half years. That is a very long time. Then in 4 months he was taking on Joe Frazier, one of the greatest heavyweights of all time.
Frazier was too good at that time. What happened when he fought Frazier again? He won.
He was never going to be 100% after that layoff. However, after several fights, he starting was able to get rid of the ring rust.

Simply watching Ali vs Frazier (or Bonavena for that matter) it is obvious that he was much slower with his hands, he couldn't move as well as he once did. He also didn't have the stamina of his prime.
Compare that to his fights in his prime where he has blazing hand speed, moving around a lot, and hardly seemed to get tired.
The difference is clear as day.

Somehow the divine handspeed worked against the great Brian London and the Slick Bat Williams, but not Frazier.

Probably there was some another layoff before Chuvalo, but it just was classified by the Russian hackers or aliens.

DrDuke wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 12:22

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 12:05 Oh come on.
Ai was off for more than 3 and half years. That is a very long time. Then in 4 months he was taking on Joe Frazier, one of the greatest heavyweights of all time.
Frazier was too good at that time. What happened when he fought Frazier again? He won.
He was never going to be 100% after that layoff. However, after several fights, he starting was able to get rid of the ring rust.

Simply watching Ali vs Frazier (or Bonavena for that matter) it is obvious that he was much slower with his hands, he couldn't move as well as he once did. He also didn't have the stamina of his prime.
Compare that to his fights in his prime where he has blazing hand speed, moving around a lot, and hardly seemed to get tired.
The difference is clear as day.

Somehow the divine handspeed worked against the great Brian London and the Slick Bat Williams, but not Frazier.

Probably there was some another layoff before Chuvalo, but it just was classified by the Russian hackers or aliens.

Or more likely, there's just always a style that is able to nullify your advantages. No matter what your advantages may be.

How do you deal with a guy's speed? You cut the ring off on him, and give him less room to use his speed. Seems like what's the pressure guys went for. Not just against Ali either, but anybody that was faster...which in Chuvalo's case was probably a lot of guys.

Cutting off the ring is easier said than done. A prime Ali was too fast for that.
He also had the fastest hand speed of any heavyweight. Was a very accurate puncher.
If Frazier's style was the main factor then Ali wouldn't have won the 2nd and third fights.
Obviously Frazier was a great fighter who fought a great fight against Ali. Not a lot of guys would have won that fight. But he didn't beat a prime Ali.
Watch Ali from 1964-1967 and then watch him after. Looks like completely different fighter.

He won the Chuvalo fight very easily btw.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 17:27 Cutting off the ring is easier said than done. A prime Ali was too fast for that.
He also had the fastest hand speed of any heavyweight. Was a very accurate puncher.
If Frazier's style was the main factor then Ali wouldn't have won the 2nd and third fights.
Obviously Frazier was a great fighter who fought a great fight against Ali. Not a lot of guys would have won that fight. But he didn't beat a prime Ali.
Watch Ali from 1964-1967 and then watch him after. Looks like completely different fighter.

He won the Chuvalo fight very easily btw.

And easily ate a bunch of left hooks with the barrage of body shots.

Lol, according to the Ali fanatics, Muh was past prime after that terrible mauling layoff, while Frazier was the same by the 2nd and 3rd Ali fights, after the tough 1st one and a loss to Foreman.

Yeah the Chuvalo fight was a real nail biter. Just a barrage of punches from Chuvalo. Wonder who landed more in that fight.
Frazier didn't have a layoff like Ali.
Got beaten badly by Foreman but all in all really had not taken that much punishment going into their 2nd fight.
Frazier younger than Ali.
So yeah, he was closer to his prime than Ali.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Jan 2023, 17:33 Yeah the Chuvalo fight was a real nail biter. Just a barrage of punches from Chuvalo. Wonder who landed more in that fight.
Frazier didn't have a layoff like Ali.
Got beaten badly by Foreman but all in all really had not taken that much punishment going into their 2nd fight.
Frazier younger than Ali.
So yeah, he was closer to his prime than Ali.

Don't fall down Alpy, but I agree with this assessment.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Jan 2023, 17:33 Yeah the Chuvalo fight was a real nail biter. Just a barrage of punches from Chuvalo. Wonder who landed more in that fight.
Frazier didn't have a layoff like Ali.
Got beaten badly by Foreman but all in all really had not taken that much punishment going into their 2nd fight.
Frazier younger than Ali.
So yeah, he was closer to his prime than Ali.

So, it seems like primes switch on and off automatically on some particular age with everyone, except Ali, since his prime is regulated by a layoff. I guess, you are better to watch talkshows for grandmas instead of the Muhammad Ali amazing speed highlights on youtube.