BoxRec

We had a fun series of this topic, let's contnue it. There was a discussion about these two guys in the other thread, so a lot missed it, that's why we need a poll.

Mercer. I think it's self evident that he was at least marginally better than Oliver McCall. He may not have been the champion, while McCall was, but are we really gonna elevate McCall when he basically got the title on a fluke punch and barely beat Holmes and then lost the title to Frank Bruno?

Oliver McCall

Hell even as an old man he's got a win over Fres Oquendo. Fres Oquendo ain't nothing to write home about, but he's like what? 15 years younger than Oliver? And he couldn't beat the old boy.

Aside from that he knocked out Bruce Seldon somewhat notable

Jesse Ferguson and older Larry Holmes. Both beat Mercer. Both lost to McCall.

McCall won the WBC title against Lennox Lewis...huge win. Made a defense against the aforementioned Holmes. Knocked out Oleg Maskaev in 1 round. Maskaev was a notable contender, and Future titleholder.

So I mean.

That's 3 wins right there that are better than any win Ray Mercer has to his credit.

I guess Mercer's win over Morrison is about as good as a bit better than Maskaev, but still.

Yeah it's McCall by a lot for me.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 00:50 Mercer. I think it's self evident that he was at least marginally better than Oliver McCall. He may not have been the champion, while McCall was, but are we really gonna elevate McCall when he basically got the title on a fluke punch and barely beat Holmes and then lost the title to Frank Bruno?

Take away the Lennox Lewis victory, and his record is still better than Mercer.

With it. It's not even a contest.

McCall had a short period of prominence secured with the freakish fluke win over an ATG, which was easily avenged in the rematch, while Mercer was always around the top in his prime years. Mercer was a better and a tougher fighter, McCall was an inconsistent competitor with an exceptional chin. Maybe if not the least, we wouldn't even heard of such fighter.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 01:01

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 00:50 Mercer. I think it's self evident that he was at least marginally better than Oliver McCall. He may not have been the champion, while McCall was, but are we really gonna elevate McCall when he basically got the title on a fluke punch and barely beat Holmes and then lost the title to Frank Bruno?

Take away the Lennox Lewis victory, and his record is still better than Mercer.

With it. It's not even a contest.

Nah, that's the only thing, which creates a reason for a discussion.

DrDuke wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 01:07 McCall had a short period of prominence secured with the freakish fluke win over an ATG, which was easily avenged in the rematch, while Mercer was always around the top in his prime years. Mercer was a better and a tougher fighter, McCall was an inconsistent competitor with an exceptional chin. Maybe if not the least, we wouldn't even heard of such fighter.

McCall beat 3 guys that Mercer didn't do sh*t but lose to.

Case closed on that alone.

Had a short period of prominence?

He beat Oquendo in 2010 when Mercer was retired, and he (McCall) was like 45 years old. That win right there would be as good as Mercer's like 4th best win, and McCall was 45 doing that.

DrDuke wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 01:08

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 01:01

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 00:50 Mercer. I think it's self evident that he was at least marginally better than Oliver McCall. He may not have been the champion, while McCall was, but are we really gonna elevate McCall when he basically got the title on a fluke punch and barely beat Holmes and then lost the title to Frank Bruno?

Take away the Lennox Lewis victory, and his record is still better than Mercer.

With it. It's not even a contest.

Nah, that's the only thing, which creates a reason for a discussion.

Hey. I'm a bigger fan of Mercer myself. He never broke down crying in the ring for one thing

But facts is facts. And fact is. Oliver McCall has the better record by a country mile.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 01:11

DrDuke wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 01:07 McCall had a short period of prominence secured with the freakish fluke win over an ATG, which was easily avenged in the rematch, while Mercer was always around the top in his prime years. Mercer was a better and a tougher fighter, McCall was an inconsistent competitor with an exceptional chin. Maybe if not the least, we wouldn't even heard of such fighter.

McCall beat 3 guys that Mercer didn't do sh*t but lose to.

Case closed on that alone.

Had a short period of prominence?

He beat Oquendo in 2010 when Mercer was retired, and he (McCall) was like 45 years old. That win right there would be as good as Mercer's like 4th best win, and McCall was 45 doing that.

Oquendo himself was past prime, while it was a SD loss, poor Fres had a chronical side-B disease.

It's impossible to judge these two only by their papers.

I also saw 'em both fight several times. It's not impossible to judge at all. I'm finding it one of the easier ones of these we've done actually.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 01:21 I also saw 'em both fight several times. It's not impossible to judge at all. I'm finding it one of the easier ones of these we've done actually.

Didn't you see than, how much better Mercer was in action?

Even if to look on paper, see the Ring ratings of the 90s. Mercer made the top 10 more, 6 times, #4 at the highest. McCall made the top 10 only 2 times, #2 at the highest, thankfully the freakish fluke win over Lewis.

After the Mental Breakdown in the rematch with Lewis, McCall was pretty well shunned from big time Boxing. Rightfully so.

Nevertheless. His record is better than Mercer. He got the better results than Mercer. His style was more about kinda soaking it up, and then unloading an assault of heavy punches, but it worked in key fights where Mercer's style didn't.

It's McCall man.

Mercer is more fun to watch. I'll never argue that. McCall had the better career.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 01:33 After the Mental Breakdown in the rematch with Lewis, McCall was pretty well shunned from big time Boxing. Rightfully so.

Nevertheless. His record is better than Mercer. He got the better results than Mercer. His style was more about kinda soaking it up, and then unloading an assault of heavy punches, but it worked in key fights where Mercer's style didn't.

It's McCall man.

Mercer is more fun to watch. I'll never argue that. McCall had the better career.

Better results - yes. But I'm not sold on this. McCall caught the unprepared and overconfident Lewis in the 2nd round, after what Lewis was even waved prematurely, while the rematch showed their true levels. And Mercer had close losses to both Lewis and Holyfield. Doesn't it show what those two were about?

Mercer's Best Wins:

Francesco Damiani
Tommy Morrison
Ossie Ocasio
Bert Cooper
Tim Witherspoon

Mercer's Best Losses:

Let's face it SOMETIMES in defeat a fighter is elevated. In the Lewis fight, for example, many people thought that Mercer was Lewis's toughest fight. Some even thought Mercer was robbed.

Evander Holyfield
Lennox Lewis

Oliver McCall's Best Wins:

Bruce Seldon
Francesco Damiani
Lennox Lewis
Larry Holmes
Oleg Maskaev

Analysis:

Mercer beat the better version of Damiani. McCall barely edged out an even older version of Larry Holmes than the version that beat Mercer. Seldon is comparable in worth to Ocasio or Cooper. Maskaev is comparable in worth to Morrison.

The only difference between the two men is the Lewis fights. One ended early and on a premature stoppage, the other was a back and forth brawl that went the distance. Sure one might bring up Fres Oquendo for McCall, but why ignore McCall getting beaten by Juan Carlos Gomez the cruiserweight around the same time?

Mercer's last big fight was against Wladimir Klitschko, and while it was a loss it certainly is a more meaningful loss than a win over an older, slower Fres Oquendo ESPECIALLY when you consider Jean Marc Mormeck defeated McCall by UNANIMOUS DECISION prior to him getting a SPLIT DECISION win over Oquendo that many people thought was a robbery:

https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Olive ... es_Oquendo

Especially when you consider that match happened in McCall's hometown of Hollywood, Florida.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 01:54 Mercer beat the better version of Damiani. McCall barely edged out an even older version of Larry Holmes than the version that beat Mercer. Seldon is comparable in worth to Ocasio or Cooper. Maskaev is comparable in worth to Morrison.

The only difference between the two men is the Lewis fights. One ended early and on a premature stoppage, the other was a back and forth brawl that went the distance. Sure one might bring up Fres Oquendo for McCall, but why ignore McCall getting beaten by Juan Carlos Gomez the cruiserweight around the same time?

Mercer's last big fight was against Wladimir Klitschko, and while it was a loss it certainly is a more meaningful loss than a win over an older, slower Fres Oquendo ESPECIALLY when you consider Jean Marc Mormeck defeated McCall by UNANIMOUS DECISION prior to him getting a SPLIT DECISION win over Oquendo that many people thought was a robbery

Good points.

An over-achiever and a legitimate top performer.

A big difference is the losses. Mercers losses to Holmes and Ferguson and the draw with Marion Wilson happened in his prime whereas many of McCalls losses are clearly pre prime or when he was shot.

None of McCalls prime losses are comparable to the Ferguson and Wilson debacles and to make matters worse many felt Mercer lost the rematch to Ferguson

People ignore McCalls loss to Gomez and others because he was past it sort of like Holyfield against Donald

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 11:32 A big difference is the losses. Mercers losses to Holmes and Ferguson and the draw with Marion Wilson happened in his prime whereas many of McCalls losses are clearly pre prime or when he was shot.

None of McCalls prime losses are comparable to the Ferguson and Wilson debacles and to make matters worse many felt Mercer lost the rematch to Ferguson

People ignore McCalls loss to Gomez and others because he was past it sort of like Holyfield against Donald

Exactly. I didn't really pay any attention to his losses at a certain point because he was written off as shot by the Boxing public anyway. So the fact that he's beating anybody during that time is somewhat noteworthy.

DrDuke wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 01:07 McCall had a short period of prominence secured with the freakish fluke win over an ATG,

You and your idiotic lucky punch theory.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 12:42

DrDuke wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 01:07 McCall had a short period of prominence secured with the freakish fluke win over an ATG,

You and your idiotic lucky punch theory.

McCall was so lucky he flattened Maskaev in 1 round too.

A big punch ain't lucky. You threw it, and it landed. I'm thinking hurting the guy with it is what you had in mind

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 12:50

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 12:42

DrDuke wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 01:07 McCall had a short period of prominence secured with the freakish fluke win over an ATG,

You and your idiotic lucky punch theory.

McCall was so lucky he flattened Maskaev in 1 round too.

A big punch ain't lucky. You threw it, and it landed. I'm thinking hurting the guy with it is what you had in mind

Absolutely. Especially in the Lewis fight. After the first round McCall can clearly be heard saying, "Come back with the right hand." And then miraculously, he throws that exact punch and drops Lewis.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 01:01

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 00:50 Mercer. I think it's self evident that he was at least marginally better than Oliver McCall. He may not have been the champion, while McCall was, but are we really gonna elevate McCall when he basically got the title on a fluke punch and barely beat Holmes and then lost the title to Frank Bruno?

Take away the Lennox Lewis victory, and his record is still better than Mercer.

With it. It's not even a contest.

Much like if they had actually fought. If they had fought 10 times Mercer would have won exactly 10 times.

hhaehre wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 14:10

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 01:01

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 00:50 Mercer. I think it's self evident that he was at least marginally better than Oliver McCall. He may not have been the champion, while McCall was, but are we really gonna elevate McCall when he basically got the title on a fluke punch and barely beat Holmes and then lost the title to Frank Bruno?

Take away the Lennox Lewis victory, and his record is still better than Mercer.

With it. It's not even a contest.

Much like if they had actually fought. If they had fought 10 times Mercer would have won exactly 10 times.

Bullsh*t.

Being champ has to mean something. I'm going for Oliver.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 14:23

hhaehre wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 14:10

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Jan 2023, 01:01

Take away the Lennox Lewis victory, and his record is still better than Mercer.

With it. It's not even a contest.

Much like if they had actually fought. If they had fought 10 times Mercer would have won exactly 10 times.

Bullsh*t.

Double bullsh1t

What McCall did wasn't pretty, but he was effective. He definitely needed his anvil of a chin to be as effective as he was because he wasn't hard to hit, but thankfully for him He DID have an anvil of a chin, and that allowed him to just kinda crash right in with his awkwardly powerful attack.

I think a fight between he and Mercer would've been more or less on even terms. It's a shame we didn't see it actually because it probably would've been an absolute slugfest.