Keir Starmer & Labour

[Counter-puncher]

Why vote at all when it's all sewn up for the self-styled 'sensible centrists' of either main parties to do what a tiny cadre of capitalists want them to?

I take your point but I'd do anything to see that lot ejected from Gov't, even if its only to wipe the smug fvcking presumptions out of them.

I think it's a poor point and reminds me of the 'all politicians are as bad as each other' trope you hear trotted out by the naive and the misled. No they're not, some politicians and some parties are better or worse than others.

Don't get me wrong, Starmer's Labour don't fill me with joy but I'd prefer them to be in power than this lot for many, many reasons, not least that the mob we have in charge now are arrogant, corrupt, dishonest, stupid and have run everything into the ground. Literally everything is fvcked.

Nor are New Labour in the thrall of capitalism to the same degree as the Tories. Yes, I know they favour business to a large degree but the Blair-Brown-Starmer model also promotes at least limited redistribution. What we've got now is robber-barons.

I guess I only take his point to the extent of bemoaning the centrist compromises the New Labour leadership(s) have taken or feel they have to take. But I'd be on the verge of voting Lib Dem or whatever they're called nowadays, just to get the BJ party of venality out.

[IRONFIST]

Starmer being evasive as ever on Gray-Gate. Labour/Starmer corrupt as ever.

So corrupt that he offered her a job in plain view therefore completely exposing his dastardly plan that literally no one had ever considered before.
His plan which was to cultivate Gray for years, have her build up an impeccable reputation for impartiality, then wait until a pandemic where he made Johnson throw parties, manipulated it so that Johnson selected Gray and his cabinet praised her impartiality.

Then Gray wrote a report which Johnson claims has exonerated him.

It's genuinely the concept of impartiality and the presence of evidence that you, and others, are struggling with.

Codswallop, did you see his LBC interview with Nick Ferrari, shifty as hell refusing to answer 10 times when he approached her for a job: Gray's son a Labour activist, no doubt him or part of her team the communication bridge between both for ages.Also no doubt Allen got him off the beergate party charges in Durham, there's something brewing (not just the beer) that could leak out and don't forget what happened to Sturgeon, what seemed trivial at the time turned into her noose... Starmer's shifty eyes in that interview the giveaway, the eyes have it, the eyes have it.

[The Gratest]

Oh no, shifty eyes!!

viewtopic.php?t=256874

[Counter-puncher]

no idea what the stupid kvnt is saying but it's surely worth a saad

[TheRiverCityHippy]

Why vote at all when it's all sewn up for the self-styled 'sensible centrists' of either main parties to do what a tiny cadre of capitalists want them to?

I take your point but I'd do anything to see that lot ejected from Gov't, even if its only to wipe the smug fvcking presumptions out of them.

I think it's a poor point and reminds me of the 'all politicians are as bad as each other' trope you hear trotted out by the naive and the misled. No they're not, some politicians and some parties are better or worse than others.

Don't get me wrong, Starmer's Labour don't fill me with joy but I'd prefer them to be in power than this lot for many, many reasons, not least that the mob we have in charge now are arrogant, corrupt, dishonest, stupid and have run everything into the ground. Literally everything is fvcked.

Nor are New Labour in the thrall of capitalism to the same degree as the Tories. Yes, I know they favour business to a large degree but the Blair-Brown-Starmer model also promotes at least limited redistribution. What we've got now is robber-barons.

New Labour did a hell of a lot of damage to this country, everything from invading Iraq (including getting mixed up in all that torture and rendition malarkey - dark sh*t for a party which supposedly revolves around equality and social justice) to bringing in tuition fee’s and saddling hospital trusts with eye watering debt repayments (PFI). They even conspired against Corbyn and actively worked against him during the general election campaign.
They try their best to distance the party from the trade unions who formed it, they deregulated the City which played a major role in the catastrophic 2008 crash which caused untold damage indeed the British Medical Journal estimated that the fall out from the crash cost 120,000 people their lives.
I could go on forever about them letting ATOS loose on the most vulnerable in society or them selling off council houses on the cheap to housing associations or them turning their backs on Hillsborough/Orgreave campaigners and the Liverpool dockers not to mention refusing to implement the brake on migrant workers from Eastern Europe….I’ll stop there but there’s much more if you want it, a lot more .
It will be a cold day in hell before I vote for Starmer or any other Blairite.

[Jaguar]

I take your point but I'd do anything to see that lot ejected from Gov't, even if its only to wipe the smug fvcking presumptions out of them.

I think it's a poor point and reminds me of the 'all politicians are as bad as each other' trope you hear trotted out by the naive and the misled. No they're not, some politicians and some parties are better or worse than others.

Don't get me wrong, Starmer's Labour don't fill me with joy but I'd prefer them to be in power than this lot for many, many reasons, not least that the mob we have in charge now are arrogant, corrupt, dishonest, stupid and have run everything into the ground. Literally everything is fvcked.

Nor are New Labour in the thrall of capitalism to the same degree as the Tories. Yes, I know they favour business to a large degree but the Blair-Brown-Starmer model also promotes at least limited redistribution. What we've got now is robber-barons.

New Labour did a hell of a lot of damage to this country, everything from invading Iraq (including getting mixed up in all that torture and rendition malarkey - dark sh*t for a party which supposedly revolves around equality and social justice) to bringing in tuition fee’s and saddling hospital trusts with eye watering debt repayments (PFI). They even conspired against Corbyn and actively worked against him during the general election campaign.
They try their best to distance the party from the trade unions who formed it, they deregulated the City which played a major role in the catastrophic 2008 crash which caused untold damage indeed the British Medical Journal estimated that the fall out from the crash cost 120,000 people their lives.
I could go on forever about them letting ATOS loose on the most vulnerable in society or them selling off council houses on the cheap to housing associations or them turning their backs on Hillsborough/Orgreave campaigners and the Liverpool dockers not to mention refusing to implement the brake on migrant workers from Eastern Europe….I’ll stop there but there’s much more if you want it, a lot more .
It will be a cold day in hell before I vote for Starmer or any other Blairite.

Yep, all true. The Tories, however, have taken it to the next level. University fees being a good example inasmuch as New Labour introduced fees but the Tories trebled them, then increased repayments, and then stopped bursaries for poorer students.

I'm no fan of New Labour, I've made that clear, but they did believe in limited redistribution via, for example, increased spending on health and state education; tax credits; the Future Jobs Fund; setting up Connexions, Sure Start, EMA, New Deal for Communities, etc. All of which helped normal working people and have, of course, all been torpedoed by the Tories.

Either way, I want this lot out, they're truly dreadful and voting Labour is, at least for me, the best way of getting rid of them.

[Boxerbeetle]

Surely it’s a bit childish to refuse to vote for Labour, just because they’re not left-wing enough for you? When the only realistic alternative is a far more right-wing government which has proven itself utterly incompetent at every turn?

[Coco]

Surely it’s a bit childish to refuse to vote for Labour, just because they’re not left-wing enough for you? When the only realistic alternative is a far more right-wing government which has proven itself utterly incompetent at every turn?

Which is why I would eventually hold my nose and vote Labour.

Nevertheless it's not because they aren't left wing enough, its because they aren't left wing at all.

They will continue to privatise the NHS

[Coco]

I take your point but I'd do anything to see that lot ejected from Gov't, even if its only to wipe the smug fvcking presumptions out of them.

I think it's a poor point and reminds me of the 'all politicians are as bad as each other' trope you hear trotted out by the naive and the misled. No they're not, some politicians and some parties are better or worse than others.

Don't get me wrong, Starmer's Labour don't fill me with joy but I'd prefer them to be in power than this lot for many, many reasons, not least that the mob we have in charge now are arrogant, corrupt, dishonest, stupid and have run everything into the ground. Literally everything is fvcked.

Nor are New Labour in the thrall of capitalism to the same degree as the Tories. Yes, I know they favour business to a large degree but the Blair-Brown-Starmer model also promotes at least limited redistribution. What we've got now is robber-barons.

New Labour did a hell of a lot of damage to this country, everything from invading Iraq (including getting mixed up in all that torture and rendition malarkey - dark sh*t for a party which supposedly revolves around equality and social justice) to bringing in tuition fee’s and saddling hospital trusts with eye watering debt repayments (PFI). They even conspired against Corbyn and actively worked against him during the general election campaign.
They try their best to distance the party from the trade unions who formed it, they deregulated the City which played a major role in the catastrophic 2008 crash which caused untold damage indeed the British Medical Journal estimated that the fall out from the crash cost 120,000 people their lives.
I could go on forever about them letting ATOS loose on the most vulnerable in society or them selling off council houses on the cheap to housing associations or them turning their backs on Hillsborough/Orgreave campaigners and the Liverpool dockers not to mention refusing to implement the brake on migrant workers from Eastern Europe….I’ll stop there but there’s much more if you want it, a lot more .
It will be a cold day in hell before I vote for Starmer or any other Blairite.

While I agree with everything you say, what are you going to do come GE day?
Not vote? Vote Tory? Vote Green?

[Jaguar]

Surely it’s a bit childish to refuse to vote for Labour, just because they’re not left-wing enough for you? When the only realistic alternative is a far more right-wing government which has proven itself utterly incompetent at every turn?

Which is why I would eventually hold my nose and vote Labour.

Nevertheless it's not because they aren't left wing enough, its because they aren't left wing at all.

They will continue to privatise the NHS

Funnily enough, one of the things that Starmer wants to do is to bring GPs into the NHS. Which is something which should have been done donkey's years ago, because GPs' practices are effectively private businesses and a right racket.

[TheRiverCityHippy]

I think it's a poor point and reminds me of the 'all politicians are as bad as each other' trope you hear trotted out by the naive and the misled. No they're not, some politicians and some parties are better or worse than others.

Don't get me wrong, Starmer's Labour don't fill me with joy but I'd prefer them to be in power than this lot for many, many reasons, not least that the mob we have in charge now are arrogant, corrupt, dishonest, stupid and have run everything into the ground. Literally everything is fvcked.

Nor are New Labour in the thrall of capitalism to the same degree as the Tories. Yes, I know they favour business to a large degree but the Blair-Brown-Starmer model also promotes at least limited redistribution. What we've got now is robber-barons.

New Labour did a hell of a lot of damage to this country, everything from invading Iraq (including getting mixed up in all that torture and rendition malarkey - dark sh*t for a party which supposedly revolves around equality and social justice) to bringing in tuition fee’s and saddling hospital trusts with eye watering debt repayments (PFI). They even conspired against Corbyn and actively worked against him during the general election campaign.
They try their best to distance the party from the trade unions who formed it, they deregulated the City which played a major role in the catastrophic 2008 crash which caused untold damage indeed the British Medical Journal estimated that the fall out from the crash cost 120,000 people their lives.
I could go on forever about them letting ATOS loose on the most vulnerable in society or them selling off council houses on the cheap to housing associations or them turning their backs on Hillsborough/Orgreave campaigners and the Liverpool dockers not to mention refusing to implement the brake on migrant workers from Eastern Europe….I’ll stop there but there’s much more if you want it, a lot more .
It will be a cold day in hell before I vote for Starmer or any other Blairite.

While I agree with everything you say, what are you going to do come GE day?
Not vote? Vote Tory? Vote Green?

Probably vote Green or Socialist Workers Party or something, my vote wont be going to help elect a bunch of neoliberal ***** like New Labour 2.0 into power.
Mark my words if Starmer gets in before he leaves office people will be paying a nominal fee for missing a doctors appointment or something, it won't be much but just like Blair and education he will leave the door ajar for all the free market wolves/spins to pile in later. We went from free education to paying some of the highest tuition fee's in the world within the space of about a decade, expect the same to happen to health as well.
That's New Labours job for the rich donor class who own them, get through legislation the Torres cant for all sorts of historical, cultural etc reasons. Who better to deliver the coup de grace to the NHS than the party who created it?

[orbtastic]

The nhs is screwed. There is no way it can carry on working as it is without either fundamentally changing the nation’s health or funding.

[TheRiverCityHippy]

We spend on average about 17% less on healthcare than comparable countries like Germany and France. The NHS is amazing value for money. the problem is that it stands in the way of the spivs in the City of London and 60 to 70 million lucrative health insurance policies.
It absolutely breaks the spivs hearts that such a basic human need like healthcare isn’t being used/leveraged to rinse people.

[Teddy's Toupee]

Why vote at all when it's all sewn up for the self-styled 'sensible centrists' of either main parties to do what a tiny cadre of capitalists want them to?

I take your point but I'd do anything to see that lot ejected from Gov't, even if its only to wipe the smug fvcking presumptions out of them.

I think it's a poor point and reminds me of the 'all politicians are as bad as each other' trope you hear trotted out by the naive and the misled. No they're not, some politicians and some parties are better or worse than others.

Don't get me wrong, Starmer's Labour don't fill me with joy but I'd prefer them to be in power than this lot for many, many reasons, not least that the mob we have in charge now are arrogant, corrupt, dishonest, stupid and have run everything into the ground. Literally everything is fvcked.

Nor are New Labour in the thrall of capitalism to the same degree as the Tories. Yes, I know they favour business to a large degree but the Blair-Brown-Starmer model also promotes at least limited redistribution. What we've got now is robber-barons.

There's nothing naive or misled about me. Any shower of sensible centrists will be allowed the illusion of being in charge as long as they don't threaten the interests of finance capitalism, which our country has been in thrall to for the last forty years.
When the only possible alternative to the Tories under our antiquated FPTP electoral voting system is warmed over Blairism, it shows how denuded our version of democracy is and why large numbers of people feel disenfrachised.
Would I rather have a Labour government than a Tory one? Yes, but that's not what's on offer. The real naivety is imagining there's a sliver of a difference between the self-styled "grown ups in the room" sensibles of both the main parties current leaderships.
To paraphrase one of the exemplars of sensible centrism, David Steel: Cast your wasted votes in your safe constituencies and prepare for disppointment

[Teddy's Toupee]

We spend on average about 17% less on healthcare than comparable countries like Germany and France. The NHS is amazing value for money. the problem is that it stands in the way of the spivs in the City of London and 60 to 70 million lucrative health insurance policies.
It absolutely breaks the spivs hearts that such a basic human need like healthcare isn’t being used/leveraged to rinse people.

[Jaguar]

I take your point but I'd do anything to see that lot ejected from Gov't, even if its only to wipe the smug fvcking presumptions out of them.

I think it's a poor point and reminds me of the 'all politicians are as bad as each other' trope you hear trotted out by the naive and the misled. No they're not, some politicians and some parties are better or worse than others.

Don't get me wrong, Starmer's Labour don't fill me with joy but I'd prefer them to be in power than this lot for many, many reasons, not least that the mob we have in charge now are arrogant, corrupt, dishonest, stupid and have run everything into the ground. Literally everything is fvcked.

Nor are New Labour in the thrall of capitalism to the same degree as the Tories. Yes, I know they favour business to a large degree but the Blair-Brown-Starmer model also promotes at least limited redistribution. What we've got now is robber-barons.

There's nothing naive or misled about me. Any shower of sensible centrists will be allowed the illusion of being in charge as long as they don't threaten the interests of finance capitalism, which our country has been in thrall to for the last forty years.
When the only possible alternative to the Tories under our antiquated FPTP electoral voting system is warmed over Blairism, it shows how denuded our version of democracy is and why large numbers of people feel disenfrachised.
Would I rather have a Labour government than a Tory one? Yes, but that's not what's on offer. The real naivety is imagining there's a sliver of a difference between the self-styled "grown ups in the room" sensibles of both the main parties current leaderships.
To paraphrase one of the exemplars of sensible centrism, David Steel: Cast your wasted votes in your safe constituencies and prepare for disppointment

Course you're naive, Teddy. You're a rock hard leftist but we're never going to get that kind of government in this country.

The reality is that the only viable alternative to the Tories is Starmers Labour, which would be slightly better. But of course they'll dance to the tune of capital. Labour isn't a socialist party as such, hasnt been for a long time. If it ever was.

Voting for the SWP or some other nutty leftist sect is effectively a wasted vote. You'd be better concentrating on getting the Tories out. Realpolitik Teddy. Not student union fantasy.

[Teddy's Toupee]

I think it's a poor point and reminds me of the 'all politicians are as bad as each other' trope you hear trotted out by the naive and the misled. No they're not, some politicians and some parties are better or worse than others.

Don't get me wrong, Starmer's Labour don't fill me with joy but I'd prefer them to be in power than this lot for many, many reasons, not least that the mob we have in charge now are arrogant, corrupt, dishonest, stupid and have run everything into the ground. Literally everything is fvcked.

Nor are New Labour in the thrall of capitalism to the same degree as the Tories. Yes, I know they favour business to a large degree but the Blair-Brown-Starmer model also promotes at least limited redistribution. What we've got now is robber-barons.

There's nothing naive or misled about me. Any shower of sensible centrists will be allowed the illusion of being in charge as long as they don't threaten the interests of finance capitalism, which our country has been in thrall to for the last forty years.
When the only possible alternative to the Tories under our antiquated FPTP electoral voting system is warmed over Blairism, it shows how denuded our version of democracy is and why large numbers of people feel disenfrachised.
Would I rather have a Labour government than a Tory one? Yes, but that's not what's on offer. The real naivety is imagining there's a sliver of a difference between the self-styled "grown ups in the room" sensibles of both the main parties current leaderships.
To paraphrase one of the exemplars of sensible centrism, David Steel: Cast your wasted votes in your safe constituencies and prepare for disppointment

Course you're naive, Teddy. You're a rock hard leftist but we're never going to get that kind of government in this country.

The reality is that the only viable alternative to the Tories is Starmers Labour, which would be slightly better. But of course they'll dance to the tune of capital. Labour isn't a socialist party as such, hasnt been for a long time. If it ever was.

Voting for the SWP or some other nutty leftist sect is effectively a wasted vote. You'd be better concentrating on getting the Tories out. Realpolitik Teddy. Not student union fantasy.

I've only ever voted Labour. If improving the quality of life for the majority
of the population is the least I expect of a party purporting to represent their interests then call me a communist. Your post only reinforces what I said in mine, anyway.
People's expections of what governments can do have been deliberately diminished by being fed a steady diet of free market ideology; the market is the only true arbiter of what is of value to humanity, profit is the only true measure of success and sastifaction.
Democracy is dead.

[Counter-puncher]

There's nothing naive or misled about me. Any shower of sensible centrists will be allowed the illusion of being in charge as long as they don't threaten the interests of finance capitalism, which our country has been in thrall to for the last forty years.
When the only possible alternative to the Tories under our antiquated FPTP electoral voting system is warmed over Blairism, it shows how denuded our version of democracy is and why large numbers of people feel disenfrachised.
Would I rather have a Labour government than a Tory one? Yes, but that's not what's on offer. The real naivety is imagining there's a sliver of a difference between the self-styled "grown ups in the room" sensibles of both the main parties current leaderships.
To paraphrase one of the exemplars of sensible centrism, David Steel: Cast your wasted votes in your safe constituencies and prepare for disppointment

Course you're naive, Teddy. You're a rock hard leftist but we're never going to get that kind of government in this country.

The reality is that the only viable alternative to the Tories is Starmers Labour, which would be slightly better. But of course they'll dance to the tune of capital. Labour isn't a socialist party as such, hasnt been for a long time. If it ever was.

Voting for the SWP or some other nutty leftist sect is effectively a wasted vote. You'd be better concentrating on getting the Tories out. Realpolitik Teddy. Not student union fantasy.

I've only ever voted Labour. If improving the quality of life for the majority
of the population is the least I expect of a party purporting to represent their interests then call me a communist. Your post only reinforces what I said in mine, anyway.
People's expections of what governments can do have been deliberately diminished by being fed a steady diet of free market ideology; the market is the only true arbiter of what is of value to humanity, profit is the only true measure of success and sastifaction.
Democracy is dead.

I agree with all you say, but I would grant Starmer as being a smidgeon less awful than the Tories and, given my low expectations and hatred of the Tories***, that’s enough for me to at least vote for him, if not expect any real change. I believe the advance of neoliberalism will be very marginally slower under this Labour, and again, in a world where low expectations are forced upon me, that just about suffices.


*** again, in a world of low expectations, just being able to watch them get beat would be a minor reward in itself.

[Teddy's Toupee]

Course you're naive, Teddy. You're a rock hard leftist but we're never going to get that kind of government in this country.

The reality is that the only viable alternative to the Tories is Starmers Labour, which would be slightly better. But of course they'll dance to the tune of capital. Labour isn't a socialist party as such, hasnt been for a long time. If it ever was.

Voting for the SWP or some other nutty leftist sect is effectively a wasted vote. You'd be better concentrating on getting the Tories out. Realpolitik Teddy. Not student union fantasy.

I've only ever voted Labour. If improving the quality of life for the majority
of the population is the least I expect of a party purporting to represent their interests then call me a communist. Your post only reinforces what I said in mine, anyway.
People's expections of what governments can do have been deliberately diminished by being fed a steady diet of free market ideology; the market is the only true arbiter of what is of value to humanity, profit is the only true measure of success and sastifaction.
Democracy is dead.

I agree with all you say, but I would grant Starmer as being a smidgeon less awful than the Tories and, given my low expectations and hatred of the Tories***, that’s enough for me to at least vote for him, if not expect any real change. I believe the advance of neoliberalism will be very marginally slower under this Labour, and again, in a world where low expectations are forced upon me, that just about suffices.


*** again, in a world of low expectations, just being able to watch them get beat would be a minor reward in itself.

The Tory scum should be trembling at the sound of the approaching tumbrils and the sharpening of the guillotines' blades. Instead we'll get Sir Keith Steady and the Sensibles of the "in name only" party leading the country to nowhere in particular for a bit, then the "reinvented and rejuvinated" Tories will get to have another go at grasping all they can for themselves and their backers in the name of prudent governance. And so the gyre keeps on turning and turning.

[Counter-puncher]

I've only ever voted Labour. If improving the quality of life for the majority
of the population is the least I expect of a party purporting to represent their interests then call me a communist. Your post only reinforces what I said in mine, anyway.
People's expections of what governments can do have been deliberately diminished by being fed a steady diet of free market ideology; the market is the only true arbiter of what is of value to humanity, profit is the only true measure of success and sastifaction.
Democracy is dead.

I agree with all you say, but I would grant Starmer as being a smidgeon less awful than the Tories and, given my low expectations and hatred of the Tories***, that’s enough for me to at least vote for him, if not expect any real change. I believe the advance of neoliberalism will be very marginally slower under this Labour, and again, in a world where low expectations are forced upon me, that just about suffices.


*** again, in a world of low expectations, just being able to watch them get beat would be a minor reward in itself.

The Tory scum should be trembling at the sound of the approaching tumbrils and the sharpening of the guillotines' blades. Instead we'll get Sir Keith Steady and the Sensibles of the "in name only" party leading the country to nowhere in particular for a bit, then the "reinvented and rejuvinated" Tories will get to have another go at grasping all they can for themselves and their backers in the name of prudent governance. And so the gyre keeps on turning and turning.

Again I agree with every word you say, and would merely suggest that even a 4 year hiatus from feeling actively raped by the governing party, as opposed to being frustrated at their passivity and compromises, would feel like a fairly sweet relief. Although I’m only guessing what tumbrils are, from the context it doesn’t sound pretty.

[Teddy's Toupee]

I agree with all you say, but I would grant Starmer as being a smidgeon less awful than the Tories and, given my low expectations and hatred of the Tories***, that’s enough for me to at least vote for him, if not expect any real change. I believe the advance of neoliberalism will be very marginally slower under this Labour, and again, in a world where low expectations are forced upon me, that just about suffices.


*** again, in a world of low expectations, just being able to watch them get beat would be a minor reward in itself.

The Tory scum should be trembling at the sound of the approaching tumbrils and the sharpening of the guillotines' blades. Instead we'll get Sir Keith Steady and the Sensibles of the "in name only" party leading the country to nowhere in particular for a bit, then the "reinvented and rejuvinated" Tories will get to have another go at grasping all they can for themselves and their backers in the name of prudent governance. And so the gyre keeps on turning and turning.

what tumbrils are.

A tumbril is a cart used to transport Tories to their executions, in a fairer world than this one.

[Coco]

Great prose from an ex pro

[Ned Stark]

Surely it’s a bit childish to refuse to vote for Labour, just because they’re not left-wing enough for you? When the only realistic alternative is a far more right-wing government which has proven itself utterly incompetent at every turn?

Think childish is unfair. Stubborn maybe but ultimately people having principles is a good thing. If we don’t have the likes of Teddy’s Toupee or RCH fighting the good fight then the likes of Starmer have zero motivation to even consider left wing policy. At least having some traditional Labour hardliners means he doesn’t get a completely free shot, he has a wider base to satisfy.

I know you’re being totally pragmatic but if we all had that view then Starmer would veer further right. Imo it’s good that there is a resistance to Starmer and new Labour moving away from their origins. I’m still undecided what to do come GE. I don’t know if I can reward a party with a vote that sabotaged itself because it was too left wing. But these Tory’s have to go. And it’s worrying how many people will default to Tory = better than any form of Labour. So I might have to be pragmatic and tactical and vote for Labour

[Jaguar]

Surely it’s a bit childish to refuse to vote for Labour, just because they’re not left-wing enough for you? When the only realistic alternative is a far more right-wing government which has proven itself utterly incompetent at every turn?

Think childish is unfair. Stubborn maybe but ultimately people having principles is a good thing. If we don’t have the likes of Teddy’s Toupee or RCH fighting the good fight then the likes of Starmer have zero motivation to even consider left wing policy. At least having some traditional Labour hardliners means he doesn’t get a completely free shot, he has a wider base to satisfy.

I know you’re being totally pragmatic but if we all had that view then Starmer would veer further right. Imo it’s good that there is a resistance to Starmer and new Labour moving away from their origins. I’m still undecided what to do come GE. I don’t know if I can reward a party with a vote that sabotaged itself because it was too left wing. But these Tory’s have to go. And it’s worrying how many people will default to Tory = better than any form of Labour. So I might have to be pragmatic and tactical and vote for Labour

This is what to do for the reasons you explain.

[Boxerbeetle]

The Tories are currently trying to whip up outrage about asylum seekers for the hundredth time, despite being in power for so long and doing absolutely fvck all to properly address the issue. They certainly know their target voter, a few folk on here will be loving it. Blame everyone else for our failures as usual, especially if they’re foreign

But yeah, Labour just aren’t left-wing enough, so may as well keep the Tories in eh