BoxRec

I recently re-watched Holmes-Norton and scored it for Norton when previosuly always scoring it for Holmes.

What if Norton gets the decision. BUT there's no rematch.

What happens to these great fighters' careers?

Norton presses for a fourth match with Ali and it goes nowhere. He loses the title to Earnie Shavers, (just as he lost their match in real life). Shavers defends against Holmes and loses (just as he lost their rematch in real life).

Long term, I don’t see dramatic changes for Norton historically.

For Holmes, I doubt that the match with Ali even takes place. He doesn’t have the luster of being undefeated, but he’s still too dangerous to risk, so Ali probably seeks a match with one of Larry’s WBA counterparts. Without an undefeated record or an Ali win, Holmes doesn’t offer as much box office appeal, so at some point, Gerry Cooney goes the WBA route as well and wins a championship.

We then have a unification match with Larry winning. He doesn’t have a Marciano record to break and retires.

Maybe.

Holmes eventually would get a title shot against someone and win it. He would be the champion for several years. The Holmes fight took a lot out of Norton and accelerated his decline. He would not have held the title for long. Maybe Earnie Shavers would have won the title. that would have been cool.
Norton would be thought of more highly today, even if people would have disagreed with the decision.

I wonder how it would've affected his historical standing if he had gotten the decision he deserved in the 3rd Ali fight?

The fight with Holmes was at least close. The 3rd fight with Ali was a very clear Norton victory that he was robbed of.

He wasn't robbed against Ali. (Cue the Ali haters) He should have won but didn't step on the gas. He wasn't as aggressive as much as he should have been. It was considered a very close fight at the time (with a lot of close rounds) and was for a long time.
It wouldn't have helped his standing that much because Ali was clearly past it. Norton fought a much better fight against Holmes.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Nov 2023, 20:49 He wasn't robbed against Ali. (Cue the Ali haters) He should have won but didn't step on the gas. He wasn't as aggressive as much as he should have been. It was considered a very close fight at the time (with a lot of close rounds) and was for a long time.
It wouldn't have helped his standing that much because Ali was clearly past it. Norton fought a much better fight against Holmes.

People certainly would've and I'm sure did recognize that Ali wasn't in his prime then, but still BEING the Heavyweight Champion boosts your legacy a lot more than ALMOST being the Heavyweight Champion.

Ken Norton won the Heavyweight Championship. They stole it from him.

10 rounds to 5 Norton in that fight. You gotta be really wanting to give Ali the decision to find a way to score it for him.

I've actually still never watched their 2nd bout I don't think.

bwu wrote: ↑05 Nov 2023, 13:17 Norton presses for a fourth match with Ali and it goes nowhere. He loses the title to Earnie Shavers, (just as he lost their match in real life). Shavers defends against Holmes and loses (just as he lost their rematch in real life).

Long term, I don’t see dramatic changes for Norton historically.

For Holmes, I doubt that the match with Ali even takes place. He doesn’t have the luster of being undefeated, but he’s still too dangerous to risk, so Ali probably seeks a match with one of Larry’s WBA counterparts. Without an undefeated record or an Ali win, Holmes doesn’t offer as much box office appeal, so at some point, Gerry Cooney goes the WBA route as well and wins a championship.

We then have a unification match with Larry winning. He doesn’t have a Marciano record to break and retires.

Maybe.

Can run with this but Holmes would not retire.

Fair point.

bwu wrote: ↑05 Nov 2023, 13:17 Norton presses for a fourth match with Ali and it goes nowhere. He loses the title to Earnie Shavers, (just as he lost their match in real life). Shavers defends against Holmes and loses (just as he lost their rematch in real life).

Long term, I don’t see dramatic changes for Norton historically.

For Holmes, I doubt that the match with Ali even takes place. He doesn’t have the luster of being undefeated, but he’s still too dangerous to risk, so Ali probably seeks a match with one of Larry’s WBA counterparts. Without an undefeated record or an Ali win, Holmes doesn’t offer as much box office appeal, so at some point, Gerry Cooney goes the WBA route as well and wins a championship.

We then have a unification match with Larry winning. He doesn’t have a Marciano record to break and retires.

Maybe.

- Interesting hypothetical, but first off I’m with Gil in having Ken win the 3rd fight.

Lest I be accused of being an Ali hater, he offered me several memorable experiences as a kid with his youthful magical presence as the big brother I never had.

Ken wouldn’t fight Shavers but rather go straight into Olympic medalist and Lar killer Bobick as he ended up. Lar was unknown by his lack of good competition and displeasing rattlesnake personality and would have to come later. He would fight Young for the first time and beat him more comprehensively, and then the popular Quarry, and then maybe Lar in a similar close fight that Ken as popular champ would win more definitively and perhaps retire knowing he was a spent force to leverage his Hollywood popularity.

Or given endless fateful possibilities lures Big George back where the people get to see George as Champ in native US Soil for the first time. Them post Vietnam years were a chaotic resetting of the US on all the major fronts and boxing would reflect that.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑07 Nov 2023, 05:23

bwu wrote: ↑05 Nov 2023, 13:17 Norton presses for a fourth match with Ali and it goes nowhere. He loses the title to Earnie Shavers, (just as he lost their match in real life). Shavers defends against Holmes and loses (just as he lost their rematch in real life).

Long term, I don’t see dramatic changes for Norton historically.

For Holmes, I doubt that the match with Ali even takes place. He doesn’t have the luster of being undefeated, but he’s still too dangerous to risk, so Ali probably seeks a match with one of Larry’s WBA counterparts. Without an undefeated record or an Ali win, Holmes doesn’t offer as much box office appeal, so at some point, Gerry Cooney goes the WBA route as well and wins a championship.

We then have a unification match with Larry winning. He doesn’t have a Marciano record to break and retires.

Maybe.

- Interesting hypothetical, but first off I’m with Gil in having Ken win the 3rd fight.

Lest I be accused of being an Ali hater, he offered me several memorable experiences as a kid with his youthful magical presence as the big brother I never had.

Ken wouldn’t fight Shavers but rather go straight into Olympic medalist and Lar killer Bobick as he ended up. Lar was unknown by his lack of good competition and displeasing rattlesnake personality and would have to come later. He would fight Young for the first time and beat him more comprehensively, and then the popular Quarry, and then maybe Lar in a similar close fight that Ken as popular champ would win more definitively and perhaps retire knowing he was a spent force to leverage his Hollywood popularity.

Or given endless fateful possibilities lures Big George back where the people get to see George as Champ in native US Soil for the first time. Them post Vietnam years were a chaotic resetting of the US on all the major fronts and boxing would reflect that.

Good to hear from you. Half suspected you wouldn't be able to resist this one.

Really like your trajectory for Norton.

How does it play out for Larry?

what if Leon Spinks had fought Ken Norton to defend the title , instead of giving Ali the re-match ?

He would likely have been poorer. Love the question. Norton takes the title from Spinks and defends against Ali. He wins that one. Maybe a lower ranked challenger next and then Holmes.

Yep. This right here.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑07 Nov 2023, 05:23

bwu wrote: ↑05 Nov 2023, 13:17 Norton presses for a fourth match with Ali and it goes nowhere. He loses the title to Earnie Shavers, (just as he lost their match in real life). Shavers defends against Holmes and loses (just as he lost their rematch in real life).

Long term, I don’t see dramatic changes for Norton historically.

For Holmes, I doubt that the match with Ali even takes place. He doesn’t have the luster of being undefeated, but he’s still too dangerous to risk, so Ali probably seeks a match with one of Larry’s WBA counterparts. Without an undefeated record or an Ali win, Holmes doesn’t offer as much box office appeal, so at some point, Gerry Cooney goes the WBA route as well and wins a championship.

We then have a unification match with Larry winning. He doesn’t have a Marciano record to break and retires.

Maybe.

- Interesting hypothetical, but first off I’m with Gil in having Ken win the 3rd fight.

Lest I be accused of being an Ali hater, he offered me several memorable experiences as a kid with his youthful magical presence as the big brother I never had.

Ken wouldn’t fight Shavers but rather go straight into Olympic medalist and Lar killer Bobick as he ended up. Lar was unknown by his lack of good competition and displeasing rattlesnake personality and would have to come later. He would fight Young for the first time and beat him more comprehensively, and then the popular Quarry, and then maybe Lar in a similar close fight that Ken as popular champ would win more definitively and perhaps retire knowing he was a spent force to leverage his Hollywood popularity.

Or given endless fateful possibilities lures Big George back where the people get to see George as Champ in native US Soil for the first time. Them post Vietnam years were a chaotic resetting of the US on all the major fronts and boxing would reflect that.

Now this is an interesting variation. I think you're right about the Bobick and Young defenses, as well as Shavers being out of the mix. I'm not quite so sure that Quarry, who Norton beat before, would've been in the title picture, but I suppose it's possible. I'm a Holmes fan, but I think he might've been blocked out of the title picture because of the other matches. A rematch with Foreman would've been very viable and very winnable for George. If that happens, does Foreman ever have his conversion? He would've been a two-time champion again, but we might never have seen Rev. George.

what would be the tale of the Tape ?
What if Leon Spinks could 'out-work" Norton and go the distance.
What previously had been Norton's most "Leon Spinks-esque"
type of fighter that he had fought ?

I think most people accept Norton should have got the decision in the third Ali fight. But he could have got the decision in the second one too. No matter how you score it, the fight was close. Either guy gets the decision it is no robbery.

Most people think Ali won the 2nd one. It was competitive, but overall, Ali seemed to have the upper hand, unlike the first one. Of course there are the haters out there. On the forum over the years, a ridiculous amount of the decisions that Ali won over his career have been debated by someone. Doug Jones, Frazier II, Jimmy Young, Earnie Shavers, Evangelista, even Spinks II. And of course, the referee counted too fast against Foreman, Frazier's trainer should have stopped the 3rd Frazier fight, etc. It never ends.

However, Larry Holmes or Marciano or whoever almost never have their fights questioned.

The third Ali-Norton did not have a ton of action and there were several close rounds that could have gone either way. If you give the winner every close round in the fight and still should not have won, it is a robbery. However as in this case, if you give Ali every close round, he wins. Norton certainly didn't clearly win 8 rounds in that fight. It might be a decision that you disagree with, but it's not a robbery. There is a difference.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑05 Nov 2023, 22:15

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Nov 2023, 20:49 He wasn't robbed against Ali. (Cue the Ali haters) He should have won but didn't step on the gas. He wasn't as aggressive as much as he should have been. It was considered a very close fight at the time (with a lot of close rounds) and was for a long time.
It wouldn't have helped his standing that much because Ali was clearly past it. Norton fought a much better fight against Holmes.

People certainly would've and I'm sure did recognize that Ali wasn't in his prime then, but still BEING the Heavyweight Champion boosts your legacy a lot more than ALMOST being the Heavyweight Champion.

Ken Norton won the Heavyweight Championship. They stole it from him.

10 rounds to 5 Norton in that fight. You gotta be really wanting to give Ali the decision to find a way to score it for him.

I've actually still never watched their 2nd bout I don't think.

The media doesn't air the second fight. It was close.

Norton definitely won the third. I had it to 9 to 6 in rounds.

He officially won the first. If that fight was 15 rounds Norton would have a good chance stopping Ali.

Norton stopping a man who could only be stopped once he was 40, weight drained and in the early throes of Parkinson's? Sure, okay.

Ali bashing is so plebeian.

I had Norton winning the first fight 7-5, though he won some of those rds clearer than Ali did. I thought Ali won the 2nd 7-4-1 and never saw it as a bad decision. I also gave Norton the 3rd by 7-6-2 which was pretty close, and I'll stand by statement, Ali sweeps the series 3-0 if he stays on his toes and boxes.

I think the first fight was a clear win for Norton and easy to score.

The second and third fights I see as 1-1. But I wouldn't have any issue with them being scored 2-0 or 0-2.