BoxRec

Which division would you pick as having the most legit candidates for the ATG top spot?

Consensus is:

HW - Ali/Louis
LHW - Charles
MW - Greb
WW - Robinson

But Lightweight... Gans, Leonard, Armstrong and Duran all have a legit shout for that top spot. Everyone has their own pick but any of these 4 are easily defendable positions.

Did I miss anyone?

FW Willie Pep

Seamus wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:54FW Willie Pep

I would probably go MW or WW (including a few LWs, like Duran and Armstrong, who fought at WW). To me the heavyweight division has always been overrated because it is what the largest % of people who watch boxing are interested in (including some of our friends on boxrec who don't really follow anything below 147). The current putrid state of the middleweight division is sad since historically it has been home to so many great fighters

The super welterweight division is divided in opinions between the greats Thomas Hearns and Mike McCallum

I don't think there is a consensus at all at middleweight. Seems like it goes down to Greb, Robinson, Hagler, Monzon.
Never understood why Pep is a slam dunk at feather. Saddler's 3 wins over him should mean something. If not, than Moore could be ahead of Charles.
At light heavy, there is Spinks and Tunney to consider. Some people would even go with Moore.

Saddler's 3 wins were more like 1 win. The referee lost control of the 3rd and 4th bouts, and when they ended Pep had been ahead on all 3 cards in the 3rd and on 2 in the 4th, the 3rd judge had it even. Hardly proof of Saddler's superiority over a figher who had been severely injured in a plane crash.

Don't see how you can say that. Pep was as dirty as Saddler. In boxing the scorecards don't matter if one guy stopped the other guy. The plane crash excuse is quite a reach.
Even if you buy all the excuses, they would be about even.
What is the argument that Pep was better? People often say he was better, but why?

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑24 Nov 2023, 11:11 Don't see how you can say that. Pep was as dirty as Saddler. In boxing the scorecards don't matter if one guy stopped the other guy. The plane crash excuse is quite a reach.
Even if you buy all the excuses, they would be about even.
What is the argument that Pep was better? People often say he was better, but why?

Well, for starters, he won more fights; 230 wins to be exact.

The plane crash excuse ? Never heard it called that before. What excuse does a guy need when he's 108-1-1 at the time he's badly injured.

The all timers from 112 on down get a little tougher to determine.

You got Jimmy Wilde, Pancho Villa, Pascual Perez, Benny Lynch, Miguel Canto. Not much separating any of those guys.

At 108 even more so.

105 the top guy is definitely Ricardo Lopez

Roman Gonzalez actually had a spectacular career as a fighter in these weight ranges, but I don't know if he built enough of a legacy in any 1 weight class to be in the conversation as the #1 guy in it, but I think he'd hold his own with anybody that ever fought from 105, 108 or 112 personally.

Ezzard wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:28MW - Greb

I would say you’d get people split between Hagler, Monzon and Greb at MW

J-C wrote: ↑26 Nov 2023, 16:15

Ezzard wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:28MW - Greb

I would say you’d get people split between Hagler, Monzon and Greb at MW

To me, Carlos Monzon is the greatest boxer at 160lbs.

Seamus wrote: ↑25 Nov 2023, 12:37 The plane crash excuse ? Never heard it called that before. What excuse does a guy need when he's 108-1-1 at the time he's badly injured.

He needs some excuse for why he only went 1-3 against Saddler.

Yes I'm with you on this. Didn't pep win 25 fights in a row or something after his plane crash. Seems to me he just came up against someone better who beat him 3/4 times. Saddler was a great fighter himself and a killer of a puncher. It stops Pep appearing with the absolute demi gods of boxing for me. He's second tier, so behind greb, robinson, langford, charles.

Dont get me wrong hes one of the best featherweights of all time but for me saddler came out on top and pep had his chances to show he was better.

agree those are the big 3 and they are hard to split. Greb for me tho just

elmersalsa wrote: ↑26 Nov 2023, 16:24

J-C wrote: ↑26 Nov 2023, 16:15

Ezzard wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:28MW - Greb

I would say you’d get people split between Hagler, Monzon and Greb at MW

To me, Carlos Monzon is the greatest boxer at 160lbs.

cfang wrote: ↑27 Nov 2023, 17:59 Yes I'm with you on this. Didn't pep win 25 fights in a row or something after his plane crash. Seems to me he just came up against someone better who beat him 3/4 times. Saddler was a great fighter himself and a killer of a puncher. It stops Pep appearing with the absolute demi gods of boxing for me. He's second tier, so behind greb, robinson, langford, charles.

Dont get me wrong hes one of the best featherweights of all time but for me saddler came out on top and pep had his chances to show he was better.

Well, according to the historians, and the video to prove it, the great Willie Pep gave the also great Sandy Saddler a boxing lesson in the rematch (fight#2).

The referees lost control of the 3rd-4th bouts, both of which Pep was winning. Know what Saddler complained about in his last yrs as a fighter ? That he was getting booed in his home town. And what was the reason ? He himself said it was because they believed he was a dirty fighter. Saddler's durability and punching power were undeniable, as were his penchant for illegal tactics. If you're not concerned with anything more than W's and L's than yes, you can make a claim that Saddler had Pep's number.

Pep didn't exactly fight cleanly in those fights either. As I said before throw out the 3rd and fourth fights. (and of course count Peps' win as equal to Saddlers ko4 win in the first fight).
Why is it a slam dunk that Pep should rated higher?

It's a slam dunk because of the long list of fighters that Pep beat, the dominance he displayed against ranked opps. The fighters Saddler lost to. the fact that at the time of their 4 meetings, Pep was still excellent, but not as good as he had been before the crash. That 108-1-1 record is nothing to take lightly, it has some soft spots, but plenty of tough opps beaten on short notice.

Seamus wrote: ↑29 Nov 2023, 08:51 It's a slam dunk because of the long list of fighters that Pep beat, the dominance he displayed against ranked opps. The fighters Saddler lost to. the fact that at the time of their 4 meetings, Pep was still excellent, but not as good as he had been before the crash. That 108-1-1 record is nothing to take lightly, it has some soft spots, but plenty of tough opps beaten on short notice.

Agreed. It could not be said better.

Ezzard wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:28 Which division would you pick as having the most legit candidates for the ATG top spot?

Consensus is:

HW - Ali/Louis
LHW - Charles
MW - Greb
WW - Robinson

But Lightweight... Gans, Leonard, Armstrong and Duran all have a legit shout for that top spot. Everyone has their own pick but any of these 4 are easily defendable positions.

Did I miss anyone?

Put Wilfredo "Bazooka" Gomez at 122lbs. Without a doubt, the best in that division ever.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑29 Nov 2023, 11:03

Ezzard wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 11:28 Which division would you pick as having the most legit candidates for the ATG top spot?

Consensus is:

HW - Ali/Louis
LHW - Charles
MW - Greb
WW - Robinson

But Lightweight... Gans, Leonard, Armstrong and Duran all have a legit shout for that top spot. Everyone has their own pick but any of these 4 are easily defendable positions.

Did I miss anyone?

Put Wilfredo "Bazooka" Gomez at 122lbs. Without a doubt, the best in that division ever.

Great pick!

Seamus wrote: ↑29 Nov 2023, 08:51 It's a slam dunk because of the long list of fighters that Pep beat, the dominance he displayed against ranked opps. The fighters Saddler lost to. the fact that at the time of their 4 meetings, Pep was still excellent, but not as good as he had been before the crash. That 108-1-1 record is nothing to take lightly, it has some soft spots, but plenty of tough opps beaten on short notice.

It was mostly soft spots A few good fighters, but mostly nobodies. Only great fighter was Manuel Ortiz. Saddler wasn't perfect, but this is far from a no-brainer.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑01 Dec 2023, 16:16

Seamus wrote: ↑29 Nov 2023, 08:51 It's a slam dunk because of the long list of fighters that Pep beat, the dominance he displayed against ranked opps. The fighters Saddler lost to. the fact that at the time of their 4 meetings, Pep was still excellent, but not as good as he had been before the crash. That 108-1-1 record is nothing to take lightly, it has some soft spots, but plenty of tough opps beaten on short notice.

It was mostly soft spots A few good fighters, but mostly nobodies. Only great fighter was Manuel Ortiz. Saddler wasn't perfect, but this is far from a no-brainer.

Not necessarily, so.

The great Sandy Saddler might have won the four-fight foul-infested series against the great Willie Pep, but that's about it. In achievements, Pep trumps Saddler in almost everything:

Willie Pep record: 230-11-1, with 65KOs. Eight of those losses came after turning 30.

Sandy Saddler record: 145-16-2, with 104KOs! He clearly was the better puncher than Pep, but Pep was the better boxer.

Saddler's record vs world champions: 8-4-1, 7KOs
Pep's record vs world champions: 14-4, 0KOs

Saddler beat 6 world champions
Pep beat 9 world champions

Saddler beat 3 Hall of Fame boxers
Pep beat 3 Hall of Fame boxers

Top wins by Saddler:
WKO4 Willie Pep
WTKO13 Flash Elorde
WTKO9 Paddy DeMarco
WTKO2 Joe Brown
W10 Harold Dade
WTKO9 Lauro Salas
W10 Eddie Giosa
W10 Orlando Zulueta
W15 Teddy "Red Top" Davis

Top wins by Pep:
W15 Sandy Saddler
W10 Manuel Ortiz
W15 Phil Terranova
W10 Harold Dade
W10 Paddy DeMarco
W10 Joey Archibald
W15 Chalky Wright
W10 Sal Bartolo
W12 Jackie Wilson
W10 Willie Joyce
W10 Humberto Sierra
W10 Allie Stolz
W10 Teddy "Red Top" Davis
W10 Eddie Giosa
W10 Jock Leslie
W10 Armand Savoie

All great wins.

The difference between the two when it comes to common opponents was that Saddler lost to 5 men that Pep beat:
LTKO3 Jock Leslie
L10 Phil Terranova
L10 Humberto Sierra
L10 Paddy DeMarco (twice)
LTKO3 Armand Savoie


So, according to the records results, we can say that even though Saddler won the series, Pep beat much more quality top opponents.

Saddler is ranked #3 at featherweight all time rankings by The Ring Magazine. Pep is ranked #1. Not too bad for a guy that beat the other guy 3 times out of 4.