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apollo creed wrote: ↑25 Feb 2024, 08:32 People see him like a Demigod of boxing but in reality he was just one hyped fighter. He fought in a weak era , went 12 rounds against guys like Tillis, Green, Smith and Tucker who I think is Tyson's best win. When he faced better competition, he got knocked out. And his fanboys should stop with that past-prime schit . Dude was a young full of juice mofo when he got knocked out by Buster and when he got stopped by Holyfield. So many gullible people are so nostalgic and emotional about a very hyped fighter. Lennox, Holy, Bowe, Tua, Ike were the real deals. This man is being too much arse kissed mostly because of his hyped aura.

His handlers knew how "good" he is, so they avoided an immediate big money rematch with Buster. Pretty sure that they had a big rematch clause in that contract. They fed him with more stiffs to put him back in the hype-train and then cash in vs Holyfield. Man, Don King was a big marketing genius.

I'm not a Tyson fan, in fact, quite the opposite, he's a scumbag rapist. If you think that he was still at his peak after four years out, you're just plain wrong. The fact is, Tyson before the layoff beat two hall of famers.

jwfg wrote: ↑25 Feb 2024, 09:14

apollo creed wrote: ↑25 Feb 2024, 08:32 People see him like a Demigod of boxing but in reality he was just one hyped fighter. He fought in a weak era , went 12 rounds against guys like Tillis, Green, Smith and Tucker who I think is Tyson's best win. When he faced better competition, he got knocked out. And his fanboys should stop with that past-prime schit . Dude was a young full of juice mofo when he got knocked out by Buster and when he got stopped by Holyfield. So many gullible people are so nostalgic and emotional about a very hyped fighter. Lennox, Holy, Bowe, Tua, Ike were the real deals. This man is being too much arse kissed mostly because of his hyped aura.

His handlers knew how "good" he is, so they avoided an immediate big money rematch with Buster. Pretty sure that they had a big rematch clause in that contract. They fed him with more stiffs to put him back in the hype-train and then cash in vs Holyfield. Man, Don King was a big marketing genius.

I'm not a Tyson fan, in fact, quite the opposite, he's a scumbag rapist. If you think that he was still at his peak after four years out, you're just plain wrong. The fact is, Tyson before the layoff beat two hall of famers.

40 y/o well past-prime Larry Holmes and B level bloated up LHW Spinks who also beat a past-prime Holmes? Mike had 1 year lay-off before the Buster Douglas fight and no big lay-offs against Holy. Fighters like Tillis, Green, Smith and Tucker went 12 rounds with Mike and fought him with no fear.

apollo creed wrote: ↑25 Feb 2024, 11:27 40 y/o well past-prime Larry Holmes and B level bloated up LHW Spinks

apollo creed wrote: ↑25 Feb 2024, 08:32 People see him like a Demigod of boxing but in reality he was just one hyped fighter. He fought in a weak era , went 12 rounds against guys like Tillis, Green, Smith and Tucker who I think is Tyson's best win. When he faced better competition, he got knocked out. And his fanboys should stop with that past-prime schit . Dude was a young full of juice mofo when he got knocked out by Buster and when he got stopped by Holyfield. So many gullible people are so nostalgic and emotional about a very hyped fighter. Lennox, Holy, Bowe, Tua, Ike were the real deals. This man is being too much arse kissed mostly because of his hyped aura.

His handlers knew how "good" he is, so they avoided an immediate big money rematch with Buster. Pretty sure that they had a big rematch clause in that contract. They fed him with more stiffs to put him back in the hype-train and then cash in vs Holyfield. Man, Don King was a big marketing genius.

Anyones record can be made to look worse than it is. Lewis got knocked out twice in his prime years, Holyfield was dropped and hurt by Cooper and question marks over how 'natural' he was. Bowe fought a lot of average fighters (Holyfield the only decent name he fought) and was being bashed up by Golota. Tua never won a title. Ike neither and was likely juiced to the gills too. Easy to pick holes in records. At the end of the day Tyson is the youngest HW champ in history and undisputed HW champ at one point. He wasn't the biggest guy in the world either, maybe 5'8" or 5'9". He had a short period when he was very good but after Douglas he was never the same fighter again. Add to that four years out the ring in what are most fighters prime years (aged 25-29). Too mentally unstable and more interested in money and women. With the right mindset, dedication and desire (and of course no jail sentence), I think he would have achieved even more.

That early Iron Mike can't be considered anything other than one of the most destructive forces in HW history.

Controversial wrote: ↑26 Feb 2024, 06:59

apollo creed wrote: ↑25 Feb 2024, 08:32 People see him like a Demigod of boxing but in reality he was just one hyped fighter. He fought in a weak era , went 12 rounds against guys like Tillis, Green, Smith and Tucker who I think is Tyson's best win. When he faced better competition, he got knocked out. And his fanboys should stop with that past-prime schit . Dude was a young full of juice mofo when he got knocked out by Buster and when he got stopped by Holyfield. So many gullible people are so nostalgic and emotional about a very hyped fighter. Lennox, Holy, Bowe, Tua, Ike were the real deals. This man is being too much arse kissed mostly because of his hyped aura.

His handlers knew how "good" he is, so they avoided an immediate big money rematch with Buster. Pretty sure that they had a big rematch clause in that contract. They fed him with more stiffs to put him back in the hype-train and then cash in vs Holyfield. Man, Don King was a big marketing genius.

Anyones record can be made to look worse than it is. Lewis got knocked out twice in his prime years, Holyfield was dropped and hurt by Cooper and question marks over how 'natural' he was. Bowe fought a lot of average fighters (Holyfield the only decent name he fought) and was being bashed up by Golota. Tua never won a title. Ike neither and was likely juiced to the gills too. Easy to pick holes in records. At the end of the day Tyson is the youngest HW champ in history and undisputed HW champ at one point. He wasn't the biggest guy in the world either, maybe 5'8" or 5'9". He had a short period when he was very good but after Douglas he was never the same fighter again. Add to that four years out the ring in what are most fighters prime years (aged 25-29). Too mentally unstable and more interested in money and women. With the right mindset, dedication and desire (and of course no jail sentence), I think he would have achieved even more.

The truth is that Lennox, Holy and Bowe have much better quality wins than Mike, which imo his best win is Tucker. Indeed Lennox, Holy and Bowe have some losses but Lennox and Bowe avenged them and improved as fighters. Didn't Golota low blowed multiple times Bowe and he got DQ'd ? lol Yeah Golota bashed out Bowe's nutsack. Mike was just getting beatings when he stepped up in competition. Buster exposed Mike and thats why Mike's handlers didn't want to make the rematch with Buster. Most probably they had a solid rematch clause and they could've made a big money rematch regardless of who was the mandatory challenger for those titles, bc of the big money and influence involved. Instead Mike's handlers choose to go on a less risky route to rebuild Mike's knock-out artist profile and then get a big money fight with Holy. Imagine if Mike would've rematched a very confident-strong Buster and lose again, then Mike's career would've been pretty much done. Mike was a very well marketed fighter that somehow reminds me of Tank Davis in terms of hype.

Best vs Best, imo fighters like Ike and Tua would've given a really tough fight to Tyson and Buster mostly bc Ike and Tua were very strong, tough, iron chined and very gritty fighters but they had poor marketing amd promotion behind them.

oogiebe wrote: ↑26 Feb 2024, 12:39 That early Iron Mike can't be considered anything other than one of the most destructive forces in HW history.

Tills, Green, Smith, Tucker went 12 rounds against young Tyson and they weren't exactly some top quality fighters. Neither Buster wasn't some kind of HW prodigy.

Beating a 40 y/o Holmes and a bloated up LHW in Spinks ain't no HOF achievement.

I mean the easiest way to market a fighter is if he's knocking people out in exciting fashion. Mike Tyson did that.

He's certainly an example of having a great manager that steered his career just right in the early going to make him look invincible.

I've always found it amusing that Mike is barely a Top 10 all time Heavyweight, and maybe not even quite in the Top 10 at all at Heavy, but he is without question one of the Top 3 or 4 biggest celebrities the sport has ever produced.

He's not as good as Holyfield or Lennox Lewis who both beat him, yet I'd bet you that for every person that knows who Holyfield and Lennox are. There's 100 more that know who Mike Tyson is.

Life's funny that way sometimes.

apollo creed wrote: ↑26 Feb 2024, 13:43 Tills, Green, Smith, Tucker went 12 rounds against young Tyson

So vast is your boxing knowledge, that you can't even get that right.

@gilgamesh

Thats what I've said, that Mike had a very clever promotion team. King was a very , very sly-clever promoter. Could you imagine the 80's version of Mike being matched against a guy like Foreman- who was still a very strong legit top fighter?! Foreman would've took that fight in a heartbeat at that time. Foreman was pretty much the Juggernaut of boxing. I think Cus even said to Mike to stay away from Foreman.

apollo creed wrote: ↑26 Feb 2024, 14:53 @gilgamesh

Thats what I've said, that Mike had a very clever promotion team. King was a very , very sly-clever promoter. Could you imagine the 80's version of Mike being matched against a guy like Foreman- who was still a very strong legit top fighter?! Foreman would've took that fight in a heartbeat at that time. Foreman was pretty much the Juggernaut of boxing. I think Cus even said to Mike to stay away from Foreman.

It took Foreman a while to get his form back really. He made his comeback in 1987, and fought his way back to a title shot in 1991. Honestly if Tyson would've fought Foreman in 1988 he would've been heavily criticized for it as Foreman at the time wouldn't have been seen as a worthy challenger.

I have no doubt he would've given Mike a hard time, but I think he would've still been too rusty to take on a Prime Mike Tyson. In retrospect it would've been nice to have seen it, but there was just never a time in their careers when the match really lined up.

Bit harsh on Mike, by some. His prime was, arguably circa 86-90, where he was blistering and supremely skilled. Granted that had a lot to do with Cus D'Amato and Kevin Rooney.

He won a lot of fights on intimidation too, especially early on and beat some good names throughout, though never hit the heights as he had in his earlier days.

Tillis was seasoned and quick.. Ferguson was a tough, wily pro. Frazier, whilst overrated, has some decent wins, Ribalta, tough and awkward, add Thomas, Berbick, Green, Bruno, Tucker, Biggs, Williams, Stewart, Smith, Ruddock, Seldon, Golota, Norris, Holyfield, Botha and Lewis.

Also, not to diminish 'Tokyo' Douglas, who would have been more than a match for most, on that night. Biggs gave Bowe a tough fight. Golota beat him up twice (Bowe).

Would say Holyfield and Lewis were better but that does not make Mike overrated. He took his beatings, when he had to (Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis) and blew away a lot of decent fighters, Champs and former Champs.

Many of these fighters, if around today, would eat up today's HW division, imo.

apollo creed wrote: ↑26 Feb 2024, 14:53
Cus even said to Mike to stay away from Foreman.

Cus died in 1985 when Tyson was 10-0
Foreman had his first comeback fight in 1987 so very doubtful he said that.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑26 Feb 2024, 15:07

apollo creed wrote: ↑26 Feb 2024, 14:53 @gilgamesh

Thats what I've said, that Mike had a very clever promotion team. King was a very , very sly-clever promoter. Could you imagine the 80's version of Mike being matched against a guy like Foreman- who was still a very strong legit top fighter?! Foreman would've took that fight in a heartbeat at that time. Foreman was pretty much the Juggernaut of boxing. I think Cus even said to Mike to stay away from Foreman.

It took Foreman a while to get his form back really. He made his comeback in 1987, and fought his way back to a title shot in 1991. Honestly if Tyson would've fought Foreman in 1988 he would've been heavily criticized for it as Foreman at the time wouldn't have been seen as a worthy challenger.

I have no doubt he would've given Mike a hard time, but I think he would've still been too rusty to take on a Prime Mike Tyson. In retrospect it would've been nice to have seen it, but there was just never a time in their careers when the match really lined up.

Foreman had around 5 fights in 87 and 9 fights in 88 which Imo is enough to shake off that ring rust considering the great physical qualities of Foreman. I have no doubt that Foreman would've been a much more tougher opponent than Holmes, Tubbs, Spinks or Bruno. Not to say that Mike vs Foreman would've been a bigger money fight too.

Controversial wrote: ↑26 Feb 2024, 17:02

apollo creed wrote: ↑26 Feb 2024, 14:53
Cus even said to Mike to stay away from Foreman.

Cus died in 1985 when Tyson was 10-0
Foreman had his first comeback fight in 1987 so very doubtful he said that.

I think Cus was talking about Foreman of 70's.

FOREMAN: "There were a couple of times, serious negotiations were going on with the Mike Tyson fight. Mike Tyson just didn’t want to fight me. Not to say he couldn’t have beaten me. I mean, this guy could punch. The bigger they are the harder they’d fall as far as Mike Tyson was concerned. I guess that I have a feeling, his first original trainer and manager, Cus D’Amato, must have told him about George Foreman’s punching power as though I would never comeback. So sometimes when you come back and a guy remembers those stories, he says to himself, ‘Look, leave that guy alone’. But I don’t think I would have been that much problems to him. I had a good left jab and I’d always do better when guys come to me."

no smoke without fire

jwfg wrote: ↑26 Feb 2024, 14:51

apollo creed wrote: ↑26 Feb 2024, 13:43 Tills, Green, Smith, Tucker went 12 rounds against young Tyson

So vast is your boxing knowledge, that you can't even get that right.

“George Foreman – the heaviest puncher,” Tyson said. “I couldn't match somebody's power who's that big, with that much mass. The only thing that allowed me to be exciting was that I threw punches so much faster than all the other guys.”

apollo creed wrote: ↑26 Feb 2024, 17:29

Controversial wrote: ↑26 Feb 2024, 17:02

apollo creed wrote: ↑26 Feb 2024, 14:53
Cus even said to Mike to stay away from Foreman.

Cus died in 1985 when Tyson was 10-0
Foreman had his first comeback fight in 1987 so very doubtful he said that.

I think Cus was talking about Foreman of 70's.

FOREMAN: "There were a couple of times, serious negotiations were going on with the Mike Tyson fight. Mike Tyson just didn’t want to fight me. Not to say he couldn’t have beaten me. I mean, this guy could punch. The bigger they are the harder they’d fall as far as Mike Tyson was concerned. I guess that I have a feeling, his first original trainer and manager, Cus D’Amato, must have told him about George Foreman’s punching power as though I would never comeback. So sometimes when you come back and a guy remembers those stories, he says to himself, ‘Look, leave that guy alone’. But I don’t think I would have been that much problems to him. I had a good left jab and I’d always do better when guys come to me."

no smoke without fire

If you read what Foreman said in your quote that isn't what Cus said, "I guess I have a feeling" and "Cus must have told him about George". In other words Foreman's opinion or guess.

Foreman was very carefully managed in his comeback, he fought a string of average journeymen, past it and blown up CWs (Qawi and Cooper) and a past it HW dragged out of a near 3 year retirement (Cooney). Foreman openly said he wanted no part of Lewis. That 24-0 (23KO) run was enough to get a title shot, no doubt assisted by it being a great story about the comeback and his age so it made the fight a money spinner and big news. So you could say Foreman was also great marketing and hype. These days his age wouldn't be seen as a big deal, he was 38 when he came back. He gave Holyfield a fight but lost a UD and took almost double the amount of punches he landed. His sheer size, strength and chin kept him in the fight. Add to that Foreman refused to fight Tucker so was stripped of the WBA belt he won from Moorer and also refused to give Schulz a rematch (in a fight he was lucky to get the decision) so was also stripped of the IBF belt. I think Tyson would've been too fast for Foreman.



.

True, Tyson was still a young man when he was stopped by Douglas. In, or out of the ring, our primes don't happen all at the same age. They say Ali was "The Greatest," but he was a terrible fighter by his late 30s. Foreman, Holmes, Archie Moore, all won fights in their 40s.

Yeah, he was knocked down by Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper, and barely beat Doug Jones. But Joe Louis and Rock Marciano also had some close calls early in their career against fighters that are hardly household names.

Pre-Douglas, Tyson was devastating. I'd rate him somewhere between 6-10 on the HW GOAT scale.

- Not to be pedantic, but we've discussed on this forum the $20-25 mil Chinese offer to stage Tyson vs Foreman in Tiananmen Square, Bejing circa 1990.

Whilst HOFers Cus and Jim Jacobs has passed on, Mike still had HOFer Bill Cayton fighting off Don King as Mike was getting torn apart by Robin Givens and her witchy mom. The Chinese offer was considerably more than the previous record purse of the $14mil split of Frazier and Ali in the Philippines.

After the parties agreed to a near even split, the Tiananmen Massacre sparked such great Chinese disturbances that the State Department issued an American Travel ban to China.

>>>> Now heavily deflated and sedated into a Zombie state by dangerous experimental Psychotropic Sedatives, Mike slept walked through the whole of the Buster fight save the KO of Buster that the referee botched with a Jack Dempsey/Gene Tunney 14 second Long Count. Natch, a rigged Don King promotion in Japan.

Buster survived to continue his masterclass for the KO of Mike that earned him all of Mike's unprecedented unified WBA/WBC/IBF/Ring Titles, ect, et al...

At that point the 23 yr old Mike had earned more than any fighter of any weight class in history, some $50 mil that had been secured in Retirement Insurance Policy by his HOF team. I could go on, but boxing history would be wasted on the OP who seems to have been kicked back more than a few grades already this year...

but would the public have taken to him ten years earlier in 1973 ?
( The world back then still seemed to be in interested in "Peace, Love and Understanding" back then.)

apollo creed wrote: ↑25 Feb 2024, 08:32Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Nah, I just can't agree with that. Mike dominated all the top contenders at Heavyweight, he went through the division, destroying everyone in a way that very, very few men have ever done. To do that in any weight class is great but to do it against the biggest and strongest division is an amazing achievement.... Then when he returned, he won a World Championship belt again. None of that is "marketing" or "hype" - it's just giving the man the credit that he is due...

Crease wrote: ↑27 Feb 2024, 16:59
Mike dominated all the top contenders at Heavyweight, he went through the division, destroying everyone in a way that very, very few men have ever done. To do that in any weight class is great but to do it against the biggest and strongest division is an amazing achievement.... Then when he returned, he won a World Championship belt again. None of that is "marketing" or "hype" - it's just giving the man the credit that he is due...

Crazy to think he was only a few months past his 20th birthday when he beat Berbick and 21 when he became undisputed HW champ.

Controversial wrote: ↑27 Feb 2024, 17:40

Crease wrote: ↑27 Feb 2024, 16:59
Mike dominated all the top contenders at Heavyweight, he went through the division, destroying everyone in a way that very, very few men have ever done. To do that in any weight class is great but to do it against the biggest and strongest division is an amazing achievement.... Then when he returned, he won a World Championship belt again. None of that is "marketing" or "hype" - it's just giving the man the credit that he is due...

Crazy to think he was only a few months past his 20th birthday when he beat Berbick and 21 when he became undisputed HW champ.

He wasn't undisputed until he beat Spinks.