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Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 27 May 2024, 22:43
by elmersalsa
Muhammad Ali has an undefeated record when second time around fights are concerned.
Ali has proven to be the best man in rematches with a record of 9-0.
The great Archie Moore, believe it or not, has a record of 27-2-2 in return or second time around matches.
The ONLY guys that beat him in return matches were Ezzard Charles and Shorty Hogue. Any other fighter, if there's a return match, Moore most likely win it.
Is there another boxer that got more wins than the Ol' Mongoose in return matches?
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 27 May 2024, 22:46
by elmersalsa
Ah! The great Willie Pep is 17-0 in rematches or second time around fights.
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 27 May 2024, 22:53
by gilgamesh
elmersalsa wrote: ↑27 May 2024, 22:46
Ah! The great Willie Pep is 17-0 in rematches or second time around fights.
Saddler won 3 of their 4 fights. So Pep is not undefeated in rematches.
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 27 May 2024, 23:05
by elmersalsa
Most return matches won by a boxer:
Archie Moore (USA)........................27 (27-2-2)
Sugar Ray Robinson (USA).........20 (20-4)
Ike Williams (USA)............................18 (18-1-1)
Henry Armstrong (USA).................18 (18-7-3)
Willie Pep (USA)..................................17 (17-0)
Carlos Monzon (ARG)......................17 (17-0)
Tony Canzoneri (USA).....................17 (17-7-1)
Ezzard Charles (USA).......................15 (15-3-1)
Eder Jofre (BRA)..................................12 (12-1-1)
Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles (CUB)11 (11-1)
Emile Griffith (USV)..............................10 (10-5-1)
Muhammad Ali (USA).........................9 (9-0)
Carlos Ortiz (PRI).....…….........................9 (9-1)
Julio Cesar Chavez (MEX).................8 (8-1)
Harry Greb (USA)…....…..........................8 (8-2, with 20NDs)
Are there any more fighters that got more than 8 return bouts?
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 27 May 2024, 23:07
by elmersalsa
gilgamesh wrote: ↑27 May 2024, 22:53
elmersalsa wrote: ↑27 May 2024, 22:46
Ah! The great Willie Pep is 17-0 in rematches or second time around fights.
Saddler won 3 of their 4 fights. So Pep is not undefeated in rematches.
Willie Pep won the second fight.
Ike Williams lost the series with Willie Joyce (1-3). But Williams won the second time around they fought.
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 27 May 2024, 23:10
by gilgamesh
elmersalsa wrote: ↑27 May 2024, 23:07
gilgamesh wrote: ↑27 May 2024, 22:53
elmersalsa wrote: ↑27 May 2024, 22:46
Ah! The great Willie Pep is 17-0 in rematches or second time around fights.
Saddler won 3 of their 4 fights. So Pep is not undefeated in rematches.
Willie Pep won the second fight.
Ike Williams lost the series with Willie Joyce (1-3). But Williams won the second time around they fought.
Yeah but rematches aren't 2nd fights only. It's any time you're fighting a guy more than once. So if you fight a guy 5 times. 4 of them are rematches.
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 27 May 2024, 23:16
by elmersalsa
gilgamesh wrote: ↑27 May 2024, 23:10
elmersalsa wrote: ↑27 May 2024, 23:07
gilgamesh wrote: ↑27 May 2024, 22:53
Saddler won 3 of their 4 fights. So Pep is not undefeated in rematches.
Willie Pep won the second fight.
Ike Williams lost the series with Willie Joyce (1-3). But Williams won the second time around they fought.
Yeah but rematches aren't 2nd fights only. It's any time you're fighting a guy more than once. So if you fight a guy 5 times. 4 of them are rematches.
You're right. But, we're talking about second fights or second time around fights.
We can make a thread about fighters that have won the most fight series. That would be interesting.
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 28 May 2024, 09:53
by bwu
Wasn't Joe Louis 10-0 in rematches?
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 28 May 2024, 15:02
by elmersalsa
bwu wrote: ↑28 May 2024, 09:53
Wasn't Joe Louis 10-0 in rematches?
I think that is 7-0
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 28 May 2024, 15:06
by elmersalsa
Joe Louis, The Brown Bomber, is 8-0.
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 28 May 2024, 15:08
by elmersalsa
Most return matches won by a boxer:
Archie Moore (USA)........................27 (27-2-2)
Sugar Ray Robinson (USA).........20 (20-4)
Ike Williams (USA)............................18 (18-1-1)
Henry Armstrong (USA).................18 (18-7-3)
Willie Pep (USA)..................................17 (17-0)
Carlos Monzon (ARG)......................17 (17-0)
Tony Canzoneri (USA).....................17 (17-7-1)
Ezzard Charles (USA).......................15 (15-3-1)
Eder Jofre (BRA)..................................12 (12-1-1)
Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles (CUB)11 (11-1)
Emile Griffith (USV)..............................10 (10-5-1)
Muhammad Ali (USA).........................9 (9-0)
Carlos Ortiz (PRI).....…….........................9 (9-1)
Joe Louis (USA).............................................8(8-0)
Julio Cesar Chavez (MEX).................8 (8-1)
Harry Greb (USA)…....…..........................8 (8-2, with 20NDs)
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 28 May 2024, 15:21
by bwu
elmersalsa wrote: ↑28 May 2024, 15:06
Joe Louis, The Brown Bomber, is 8-0.
Lee Ramage, Max Schmeling, Bob Pastor, Arturo Godoy, Buddy Baer, Abe Simon, Billy Conn, Jersey Joe Walcott, Omelio Agramonte, Cesar Brion. I think he’s 10-0.
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 03 Jun 2024, 11:48
by Bundana
elmersalsa wrote: ↑27 May 2024, 23:05
Most return matches won by a boxer:
Archie Moore (USA)........................27 (27-2-2)
Sugar Ray Robinson (USA).........20 (20-4)
Ike Williams (USA)............................18 (18-1-1)
Henry Armstrong (USA).................18 (18-7-3)
Willie Pep (USA)..................................17 (17-0)
Carlos Monzon (ARG)......................17 (17-0)
Tony Canzoneri (USA).....................17 (17-7-1)
Ezzard Charles (USA).......................15 (15-3-1)
Eder Jofre (BRA)..................................12 (12-1-1)
Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles (CUB)11 (11-1)
Emile Griffith (USV)..............................10 (10-5-1)
Muhammad Ali (USA).........................9 (9-0)
Carlos Ortiz (PRI).....…….........................9 (9-1)
Julio Cesar Chavez (MEX).................8 (8-1)
Harry Greb (USA)…....…..........................8 (8-2, with 20NDs)
Are there any more fighters that got more than 8 return bouts?
Without even looking into this... my gut feeling tells me, that there surely must be lots of other fighters, with more than 8 second-time-around return bouts!
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 03 Jun 2024, 16:14
by Caractacus
Did Archie Moore ever want a re-match with Floyd Patterson ?
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 03 Jun 2024, 18:28
by elmersalsa
Caractacus wrote: ↑03 Jun 2024, 16:14
Did Archie Moore ever want a re-match with Floyd Patterson ?
I don't know. He probably didn't want none of Floyd after that thrashing that Floyd gave him.
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 03 Jun 2024, 18:32
by Expug
Worth looking at the records of fighters who nobody wanted to fight back in the forties. Great black fighters who had to fight each other constantly. Holman Williams, charley Burley, Jimmy Bivins, Bert Lytel , Cocoa Kid from Puerto Rico, Eddie Booker, if you didn’t know how to fight, these fellas would chase you out of the ring. Fritzie Zivic and Jake Lamotta were willing but lots of other guys were not.
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 03 Jun 2024, 18:57
by elmersalsa
Expug wrote: ↑03 Jun 2024, 18:32
Worth looking at the records of fighters who nobody wanted to fight back in the forties. Great black fighters who had to fight each other constantly. Holman Williams, charley Burley, Jimmy Bivins, Bert Lytel , Cocoa Kid from Puerto Rico, Eddie Booker, if you didn’t know how to fight, these fellas would chase you out of the ring. Fritzie Zivic and Jake Lamotta were willing but lots of other guys were not.
That's why I say that Sugar Ray Robinson was very overrated.
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 05 Jun 2024, 00:10
by Bundana
elmersalsa wrote: ↑28 May 2024, 15:08
Most return matches won by a boxer:
Len Wickwar (UK).........................63 (63-12-11-1NC)
Archie Moore (USA)........................27 (27-2-2)
Sugar Ray Robinson (USA).........20 (20-4)
Ike Williams (USA)............................18 (18-1-1)
Henry Armstrong (USA).................18 (18-7-3)
Willie Pep (USA)..................................17 (17-0)
Carlos Monzon (ARG)......................17 (17-0)
Tony Canzoneri (USA).....................17 (17-7-1)
Ezzard Charles (USA).......................15 (15-3-1)
Eder Jofre (BRA)..................................12 (12-1-1)
Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles (CUB)11 (11-1)
Emile Griffith (USV)..............................10 (10-5-1)
Muhammad Ali (USA).........................9 (9-0)
Carlos Ortiz (PRI).....…….........................9 (9-1)
Joe Louis (USA).............................................8(8-0)
Julio Cesar Chavez (MEX).................8 (8-1)
Harry Greb (USA)…....…..........................8 (8-2, with 20NDs)
Edit: Just thought the right man should be put on top!
Edit: On closer inspection I see, that I have counted 2 boxers twice - which is why I have taken Wickwar's number of wins down from 65 to 63
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 05 Jun 2024, 03:52
by elmersalsa
Bundana wrote: ↑05 Jun 2024, 00:10
elmersalsa wrote: ↑28 May 2024, 15:08
Most return matches won by a boxer:
Len Wickwar (UK).........................65 (65-12-11-1NC)
Archie Moore (USA)........................27 (27-2-2)
Sugar Ray Robinson (USA).........20 (20-4)
Ike Williams (USA)............................18 (18-1-1)
Henry Armstrong (USA).................18 (18-7-3)
Willie Pep (USA)..................................17 (17-0)
Carlos Monzon (ARG)......................17 (17-0)
Tony Canzoneri (USA).....................17 (17-7-1)
Ezzard Charles (USA).......................15 (15-3-1)
Eder Jofre (BRA)..................................12 (12-1-1)
Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles (CUB)11 (11-1)
Emile Griffith (USV)..............................10 (10-5-1)
Muhammad Ali (USA).........................9 (9-0)
Carlos Ortiz (PRI).....…….........................9 (9-1)
Joe Louis (USA).............................................8(8-0)
Julio Cesar Chavez (MEX).................8 (8-1)
Harry Greb (USA)…....…..........................8 (8-2, with 20NDs)
Edit: Just thought the right man should be put on top!
I will check his record.
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 05 Jun 2024, 10:53
by bwu
Louis is 10-0.
Re: Archie Moore: The Champion of Return Matches?
Posted: 05 Jun 2024, 13:36
by elmersalsa
bwu wrote: ↑05 Jun 2024, 10:53Louis is 10-0.
Thanks for the update and info. The great Joe Louis was a master in second time around fights.