BoxRec

Am I right in saying.......?

Neither of them beat a boxer in the IBHOF.
Neither of them beat the number one in the division.
Wladimir lost to Ross Purrity who's record was 24-13-1 going into the fight. To find a heavyweight champion with a loss to a guy who had a 64% win rate or less, at any point in their career, you would have to go back to Leon Spinks.

Wlad had some low lows. On his best nights he was a fantastic fighter. Testament to the man that he could fall so low and come back so strong.

- Floyd Patterson and Ingo Bingo in the HOF with very ordinary records examples of HOF selections.

The HOF Ks have dominated Hvy for 30 years now in 'Ring Rankings now upheld by soon to be HOF Usyk whom they promote in a fashion never seen before. Wlad the first Hvy to challenge the Immaculate Joe Louis record.

OP don't understand the lag time of HOF, sometimes as much as 50 years. Nor does he understand they put a lady boxer in the HOF who never had a registered bout ama or pro. They ain't the brightest bulbs burning, but then neither are most boxing officials and fans, so OP in good company.

Povetkin, Haye, Chagaev, Byrd, and even Lefties Tony Thompson and Corrie Sanders who died a heroes death could get in. They would all beat most HOF Hvys currently enshrined. Only a half dozen elite HOF Hvys would have a chance .

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 11:35 - Floyd Patterson and Ingo Bingo in the HOF with very ordinary records examples of HOF selections.

The HOF Ks have dominated Hvy for 30 years now in 'Ring Rankings now upheld by soon to be HOF Usyk whom they promote in a fashion never seen before. Wlad the first Hvy to challenge the Immaculate Joe Louis record.

OP don't understand the lag time of HOF, sometimes as much as 50 years. Nor does he understand they put a lady boxer in the HOF who never had a registered bout ama or pro. They ain't the brightest bulbs burning, but then neither are most boxing officials and fans, so OP in good company.

Povetkin, Haye, Chagaev, Byrd, and even Lefties Tony Thompson and Corrie Sanders who died a heroes death could get in. They would all beat most HOF Hvys currently enshrined. Only a half dozen elite HOF Hvys would have a chance .

Hi there Broughton, hope all is well.

I know the board unjustly hates Wlad and Vitali. How do you see them in the pantheon of greats. And Usyk? He seems like a fantastic fighter to me. Up there with anyone I've seen in the division since following the sport.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 11:35 Povetkin, Haye, Chagaev, Byrd, and even Lefties Tony Thompson and Corrie Sanders who died a heroes death could get in.

I'm sorry. Just to clarify, are they in the Hall of Fame now? If they are, I'm happy to apologize.

Ezzard wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 11:41 I know the board unjustly hates Wlad and Vitali.

I don't hate them, I really like them actually, I just don't rate them as highly as others. Wlad's losses can't be glossed over and Vitali's wins were against poor opposition.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 11:50

Ezzard wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 11:41 I know the board unjustly hates Wlad and Vitali.

I don't hate them, I really like them actually, I just don't rate them as highly as others. Wlad's losses can't be glossed over and Vitali's wins were against poor opposition.

Almost nobody rates them here.

Wlad beat a lot of tough contenders. And did it over a long span. He became a better fighter once he addressed his flaws. Few boxers are able to do this.

Ezzard wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 11:54 Wlad beat a lot of tough contenders. And did it over a long span. He became a better fighter once he addressed his flaws. Few boxers are able to do this.

I agree with all of that, but the losses and the lack of quality of opposition can't be overlooked IMO.

Not sure what you mean. Don't think anyone is overlooking any facet.

I am reluctantly to weigh in one this. I know how his fans can be.

He didn't become a better fighter in his 30s. The competition just sucked. He had a weak chin and poor stamina. To some degree he was able to compensate that by clinching so much. He would land the occasional bomb, a jab here and there and spend the rest of the round clinching. That was enough to beat weak competition. Would not have been enough to beat really good competition. The best opponent that he ever beat was Chris Byrd. That isn't that impressive.

there are people that go gaga over him. Some over his brother. He has some ability and some serious flaws. Many fighters that don't get talked about as much were better.
Oh, and he ducked Lennox Lewis. For some reason he always gets a free pass for that.

Ezzard wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 12:04 Not sure what you mean. Don't think anyone is overlooking any facet.

You don't, you're a sensible and knowledgeable guy. But some posters give Wlad a pass for his losses. And talk about his opponents making it into the HOF in the next 50 years.

wlad like his jab and grab idol jack johnson, who was ground down by 5-2 klondike hayes on his way up

history section loves them some klitschkos

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 15:06 I am reluctantly to weigh in one this. I know how his fans can be.

He didn't become a better fighter in his 30s. The competition just sucked. He had a weak chin and poor stamina. To some degree he was able to compensate that by clinching so much. He would land the occasional bomb, a jab here and there and spend the rest of the round clinching. That was enough to beat weak competition. Would not have been enough to beat really good competition. The best opponent that he ever beat was Chris Byrd. That isn't that impressive.

there are people that go gaga over him. Some over his brother. He has some ability and some serious flaws. Many fighters that don't get talked about as much were better.
Oh, and he ducked Lennox Lewis. For some reason he always gets a free pass for that.

ya, you are sooooo reluctant in posting about the klits, that's why you only do it hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times

plus another set of paragraphs in this thread. just so reluctant aren't you....more like you cant resist lol

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 15:13

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 15:06 I am reluctantly to weigh in one this. I know how his fans can be.

He didn't become a better fighter in his 30s. The competition just sucked. He had a weak chin and poor stamina. To some degree he was able to compensate that by clinching so much. He would land the occasional bomb, a jab here and there and spend the rest of the round clinching. That was enough to beat weak competition. Would not have been enough to beat really good competition. The best opponent that he ever beat was Chris Byrd. That isn't that impressive.

there are people that go gaga over him. Some over his brother. He has some ability and some serious flaws. Many fighters that don't get talked about as much were better.
Oh, and he ducked Lennox Lewis. For some reason he always gets a free pass for that.

ya, you are sooooo reluctant in posting about the klits, that's why you only do it hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times

plus another set of paragraphs in this thread. just so reluctant aren't you....more like you cant resist lol

Reluctant or not, Alp's right.

to me wlad is like a bigger, whiter jack johnson. many physical advantages over his opponents. major use of stand offish jab and grab tactics to exploit this , with the occasional right hand to lower the boom. early tko loss after getting worn out vs a mediocre opponent, before stabilizing for a long run of success vs spotty opposition (for jack it was teenagers, guys inactive for 6 years, 150 pounders). eventually a younger bigger guy comes along and ends the run - for wlad at 39, for jack at 37. wlad lacking jacks cultural significance and compelling biography though

vitali to me is like a bigger carl froch, albeit with worse opposition. gangly and awkard looking a lot of the time, with that hands down leaning defense, but also a physically strong and fit guy who could impose himself with effectivness vs conventionally neater fighters. realistically probably shouldnt be in the hof because his oppositon was so limited, although wlad should

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 15:43 to me wlad is like a bigger, whiter jack johnson.

Except Jack Johnson was The Heavyweight Champion of the World with wins over Hall of Famers, five in fact. Johnson beat The Man, neither Wlad or Vitali did that.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 16:02

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 15:43 to me wlad is like a bigger, whiter jack johnson.

Except Jack Johnson was The Heavyweight Champion of the World with wins over Hall of Famers, five in fact. Johnson beat The Man, neither Wlad or Vitali did that.

lol, johnson won the hw title vs 5'7 168 pound (on fight day) tommy burns, sure some man

jack's hall of famers also included a guy inactive 6 years, a middleweight, and a 5'6 guy weighing 156 in the ring. imagine wlad klitschko beating someone the size of a short welterweight today and acting like its a big deal. its just silly.

and wlad was widely recognized as lineal champ anyway. had the ring belt and considered champ by the transnational boxing review board, who are hardcore linealists for ppl who care about that stuff. he was ranked as #1 in every major boxing publication for multiple years. boxing scene named him multiple times as the most dominant fighter (not necessarily the best) in the sport.

wlad and jack - the jab and grab huggy brothers from other mothers

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 16:03

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 16:02

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 15:43 to me wlad is like a bigger, whiter jack johnson.

Except Jack Johnson was The Heavyweight Champion of the World with wins over Hall of Famers, five in fact. Johnson beat The Man, neither Wlad or Vitali did that.

lol, johnson won the hw title vs 5'7 168 pound (on fight day) tommy burns, sure some man

jack's hall of famers also included a guy inactive 6 years, a middleweight, and a guy weighing 156 in the ring. imagine wlad klitschko beating someone the size of a welterweight today and acting like its a big deal

Tommy Burns wasn't small for the time, he was average height, so, yes, he was a man and also one who could really fight.

If you're referring to Stanley Ketchel, you're talking about one of most murderous punchers in the history of the sport. Not Lamon Brewster.

burns was a manlet, wlad klitschko wouldve swatted him aside easily. well actually the fight would never be allowed to happen in any era wlad fought. burns was basically the size of curtis stevens

puffing up wins over middleweights , for the atg rating of a heavyweight, is hilarious

my comparison wasnt mainly about quality opposition anyway, more about style and career trajectory. but man did jack have some freak show circus tent kinda fights. i agree, wlads opposition was hardly the strongest either and im not saying he's some elite atg, he's lucky he wasnt born earlier and around while lewis, tyson, bowe, holyfield were primed

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 16:21 puffing up wins over middleweights , for the atg rating of a heavyweight, is hilarious

I know. But still, that win was a hell of a lot better than Alex Leapai, Francesco Pianeta etc.

Ezzard wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 11:41

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 11:35 - Floyd Patterson and Ingo Bingo in the HOF with very ordinary records examples of HOF selections.

The HOF Ks have dominated Hvy for 30 years now in 'Ring Rankings now upheld by soon to be HOF Usyk whom they promote in a fashion never seen before. Wlad the first Hvy to challenge the Immaculate Joe Louis record.

OP don't understand the lag time of HOF, sometimes as much as 50 years. Nor does he understand they put a lady boxer in the HOF who never had a registered bout ama or pro. They ain't the brightest bulbs burning, but then neither are most boxing officials and fans, so OP in good company.

Povetkin, Haye, Chagaev, Byrd, and even Lefties Tony Thompson and Corrie Sanders who died a heroes death could get in. They would all beat most HOF Hvys currently enshrined. Only a half dozen elite HOF Hvys would have a chance .

Hi there Broughton, hope all is well.

I know the board unjustly hates Wlad and Vitali. How do you see them in the pantheon of greats. And Usyk? He seems like a fantastic fighter to me. Up there with anyone I've seen in the division since following the sport.

They did not fight each other nor should brothers fight.  But you bring up a good point.  Ring Rankings. Both men beat several Ring magazine ranked opponents.    Does anyone know their records vs. Ring magazine's top ten?

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 15:13

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Oct 2024, 15:06 I am reluctantly to weigh in one this. I know how his fans can be.

He didn't become a better fighter in his 30s. The competition just sucked. He had a weak chin and poor stamina. To some degree he was able to compensate that by clinching so much. He would land the occasional bomb, a jab here and there and spend the rest of the round clinching. That was enough to beat weak competition. Would not have been enough to beat really good competition. The best opponent that he ever beat was Chris Byrd. That isn't that impressive.

there are people that go gaga over him. Some over his brother. He has some ability and some serious flaws. Many fighters that don't get talked about as much were better.
Oh, and he ducked Lennox Lewis. For some reason he always gets a free pass for that.

ya, you are sooooo reluctant in posting about the klits, that's why you only do it hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times

plus another set of paragraphs in this thread. just so reluctant aren't you....more like you cant resist lol

Klitschko was being mentioned in the other threads. In the one comment, I just mentioned him passing when discussing Fury. In act I said that that Fury should not be getting credit for the win over Klitschko because Klitschko was old.

I don't bring up Klitschko out of the blue, like you did with Jack Johnson.
A little surprised that you never mentioned that Johnson was never knocked down between the ages of 23 and 37. That is not something that he has in common with Klitschko.

I just don't like getting discussions with him because I know how it will play out. He (and his brother for that matter) get talked about way more than he should. There are people who think he magically got better in his 30s and is an ATG. There are many fighters who were better who don't get talked about nearly as much.

Wladimir was a dominant Champion in a fairly weak era, but still nonetheless stamps his place in history, same as Larry Holmes and Joe Louis before him who pretty much had similar reigns in similarly weak eras.

The division heated up right as Wladimir was exiting it, but he still fought a few of the big names of the current era as well. His final bout against Anthony Joshua was a particularly exciting heavyweight bout.

I figure David Haye could potentially be a Hall of Famer, but he isn't in now, and if he is in it's barely. I don't think Klitschko has any wins over any Hall of Famers, but he undoubtedly is a Hall of Famer himself because in spite of being dominant in an era with few Hall of Fame worthy opponents, he nonetheless was the best among them for a long, long time.

Vitali Klitschko has a thinner resume than Wlad, but was equally as dominant for a few years there against a lower caliber of opposition. He's certainly a Hall of Famer as well, and they had an interesting time in the division.

You can poke at any resume if you wish.

Larry Holmes is I believe 1-4 against Hall of Famers right? He has a win over shot Ali, and then 2 defeats to Michael Spinks, 1 to Tyson and 1 to Holyfield.

So if you hear it put that way. Well boy it sure sounds like Larry Holmes wasn't much, but if you believe that. You're missing the big picture of Larry Holmes' career and his impact on the sport, and there's also the inconvenient misfortune for Larry that many of his biggest name opponents came about when he was in the Twilight of his career.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Oct 2024, 17:56I figure David Haye could potentially be a Hall of Famer, but he isn't in now, and if he is in it's barely. I don't think Klitschko has any wins over any Hall of Famers, but he undoubtedly is a Hall of Famer himself because in spite of being dominant in an era with few Hall of Fame worthy opponents, he nonetheless was the best among them for a long, long time.

As well as the weak era, the biggest fights he had as champion – Ibragimov (was a big deal at the time as first unification in years, big push from HBO), Haye and Povetkin – were stinkers of epic proportions.

I wouldn't be surprised if all three were in the top ten worst HW title fights ever (not really Wlad's fault in the case of Haye).

Shouldn't effect how he's rated in theory, but probably does.

I know the 1980s HWs in great detail.

Witherspoon
Thomas
Page

These were likely the most talented of the non-greats. But they were erratic in their performances.

Cooney
Coetzee
Weaver
Dokes
Berbick
Bruno
Smith
Tubbs

These guys were all solid contenders. They would have been contenders in any era.

Throw them all into one bucket for the sake of convenience. How many of Wlad's opponents would make it as contenders back in the 1980s? Not arguing who was better. Not trying to split hairs... But who could sit in that bucket and belong there... And add in that they were not too far past their best when Wlad defeated them...

Byrd
Peter
Ibragimov
Thompson
Chagaev
Chambers
Haye
Povetkin
Pulev

Gives him 11 wins over solid contenders. That's enough to be considered an ATG.