BoxRec

Ezzard wrote: ↑01 Nov 2024, 08:10 Add Pinklon Thomas to Holmes's list. And there should have been a rematch with Witherspoon. If Spoon had got the nod there would defintiely have been a rematch.

I think Marciano fought/beat everyone. As did Louis and Wlad.

Dempsey has Wills.
Johnson has Langford and Jeanette.
Peter Jackson hung over the chapionship way back when.
Lewis has Bowe.

Ezzard wrote: ↑01 Nov 2024, 08:10 Add Pinklon Thomas to Holmes's list. And there should have been a rematch with Witherspoon. If Spoon had got the nod there would defintiely have been a rematch.

I think Marciano fought/beat everyone. As did Louis and Wlad.

Dempsey has Wills.
Johnson has Langford and Jeanette.
Peter Jackson hung over the chapionship way back when.
Lewis has Bowe.

Flump wrote: ↑01 Nov 2024, 09:04

Ezzard wrote: ↑01 Nov 2024, 08:10 Add Pinklon Thomas to Holmes's list. And there should have been a rematch with Witherspoon. If Spoon had got the nod there would defintiely have been a rematch.

I think Marciano fought/beat everyone. As did Louis and Wlad.

Dempsey has Wills.
Johnson has Langford and Jeanette.
Peter Jackson hung over the chapionship way back when.
Lewis has Bowe.

You could add Dokes to the list too, but these guys didn't stay long enough as champions to build sufficient interest for Don King to unify the belts.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Nov 2024, 11:44 To be fair to Holmes, he did defend the title against Weaver, Witherspoon, Cooney, Smith, Williams, Snipes, etc.
i.e. guys that were about even with Tubbs Page, Thomas etc. He was defending his title several times a year. He couldn't fight everyone. Those that he didn't fight seemed content to go for the WBA title. People were not screaming for him to fight these guys.

There is always going to be someone. Even if you beat the very best fighters over a few years, there is still going to be someone out there.
Marciano could have defended it against Bob Baker as well.
Louis didn't defend it against Bivins, Turkey Thompson, or Elmer Ray.

Expug wrote: ↑02 Nov 2024, 14:47

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Nov 2024, 11:44 To be fair to Holmes, he did defend the title against Weaver, Witherspoon, Cooney, Smith, Williams, Snipes, etc.
i.e. guys that were about even with Tubbs Page, Thomas etc. He was defending his title several times a year. He couldn't fight everyone. Those that he didn't fight seemed content to go for the WBA title. People were not screaming for him to fight these guys.

There is always going to be someone. Even if you beat the very best fighters over a few years, there is still going to be someone out there.
Marciano could have defended it against Bob Baker as well.
Louis didn't defend it against Bivins, Turkey Thompson, or Elmer Ray.

I believe Louis couldn’t stand Ray. Swore off fighting him because he didn’t want to give him a payday. It was a case of Ray talking so much shit at Joe that Louis wouldn’t fight him.

Billy Tully wrote: ↑02 Nov 2024, 12:09 Holmes vacated the WBC belt rather than fight Page or rematch Spoon, and there was certainly clamour for Pinky, at that time a serious handful who beat Spoon easily. He was more interesting than Bey or Williams.

funso banjo baby wrote: ↑01 Nov 2024, 07:45 Having read the interesting all time lists of heavyweight champions by boxing historians it got me thinking about other criteria.

Let me start off by stating with complete confidence that Muhammed Ali fought the world's best in his time. I cannot think of an example of a single missed or avoided potentially significant fight. The same goes for Hagler at Middleweight.

Many of the longest hw champs had their fare share of bum of the month fights, not just Louis, everyone from Burns to Klitschko, arguably.

But I'd be interested in hearing from the most knowledgeable of boxrec historians which champions maybe could or should have fought other significant challengers in their time.

I can kick off with Holmes who is in my all time top 5. But the only names i can think of had very small windows of opportunity....namely a fit and focused Greg Page and Gerrie Coetzee. Both impressive in picking up the WBA baubles but quickly threw them away. Apart from that Holmes maybe could have rematched a few challengers some where down the line but again, like Ali, I really don't see any significant challengers\disrupters out there. That is why he joins the ranks of the greatest.

Other champions pose a greater dilemma, top of my head is Rocky Marciano....?

Also imagine the potential change to history if, for example, Floyd Patterson had defended his title against a younger Liston around the time that Liston had beaten Bethea?

The biggest minefield will of course by Jack Johnson and that roughest of all eras.

Bodyshot3 wrote: ↑03 Nov 2024, 18:43 Bowe had the belt and the linear kudos.....and I still believe he ducked Lewis, possibly because Rock Newman felt more money could be made down the line. Or maybe it was because Newman was a massive A-hole

That still feels like the best HW title fight that got away that I can recall.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑02 Nov 2024, 21:14

Expug wrote: ↑02 Nov 2024, 14:47

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Nov 2024, 11:44 To be fair to Holmes, he did defend the title against Weaver, Witherspoon, Cooney, Smith, Williams, Snipes, etc.
i.e. guys that were about even with Tubbs Page, Thomas etc. He was defending his title several times a year. He couldn't fight everyone. Those that he didn't fight seemed content to go for the WBA title. People were not screaming for him to fight these guys.

There is always going to be someone. Even if you beat the very best fighters over a few years, there is still going to be someone out there.
Marciano could have defended it against Bob Baker as well.
Louis didn't defend it against Bivins, Turkey Thompson, or Elmer Ray.

I believe Louis couldn’t stand Ray. Swore off fighting him because he didn’t want to give him a payday. It was a case of Ray talking so much shit at Joe that Louis wouldn’t fight him.

Shame Lem Franklin never got to fight Joe.

pound per pound wrote: ↑05 Nov 2024, 09:27

Nile4000 wrote: ↑02 Nov 2024, 21:14

Expug wrote: ↑02 Nov 2024, 14:47
I believe Louis couldn’t stand Ray. Swore off fighting him because he didn’t want to give him a payday. It was a case of Ray talking so much shit at Joe that Louis wouldn’t fight him.

Shame Lem Franklin never got to fight Joe.

And a shame Elmer Ray didn't fight him either. In fact just two of Joe Louis 26+ title defenses were vs. African American men. This is shocking but true. One had a bad vision problem and it was his last fight. Joe gave him a gift for a retirement . The other follored him twice only to be " robbed " on the score cards. Based on what I have seen, it was a bad decsion.

As the heavyweight champion he could have give more dark skinned conterders chace for civil rights, but hisory shows he only gave two.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Nov 2024, 09:53 There had always been a theory that two black fighters in a fight would not draw as well.

pound per pound wrote: ↑03 Nov 2024, 09:10 As heavyweight champion he could fight in any USA state,

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑01 Nov 2024, 13:09 lol ya, jack johnson beating a barely 20 year old, 156 pound sam langford is a great heavyweight win, surely excuses him from ever fighting him again. sam had even fought at 141 pounds just a year before

jack went even younger with sam mcvea though, fighting him when sam was still a teenager. of coursee ,like vs langford, jack was already a fully grown man at prime hw age.

jee, i wonder if inexperienced, undersized teeny boppers who arent even done growing could become much more formidable hw challengers as they got older and more experienced? jack himself was kod multiple times early in his career.

by the way, junior welterweights dev haney and regis prograis both weighed more than 156 on fight night when they fought last year, haney was even up to 165. at that stage of sam's career he was the size of just a light welter today, far from a genuine hw. wee little guy. imagine a hw beating a light welter and people trying to act like it's a big deal.