BoxRec

think its worth a thread seeing as the six nations had abit of interest.

heres the squad for comment / discussion and NO johnny wilkinson personally I think good, jones has earned the right to start.


British and Irish Lions squad to tour New Zealand this summer:

Backs: I Balshaw (England and Leeds), G Murphy (Ireland and Leinster), J Robinson (England and Sale Sharks), G Thomas (Wales and Toulouse), S Williams (Wales and Neath-Swansea Ospreys), J Lewsey (England and Wasps), S Horgan (Ireland and Leinster), D Hickie (Ireland and Leinster), T Shanklin (Wales and Cardiff Blues), B O'Driscoll (Ireland and Leinster, capt), G Henson (Wales and Neath-Swansea Ospreys), O Smith (England and Leicester), G D'Arcy (Ireland and Leinster), W Greenwood (England and Harlequins), S Jones (Wales and Clermont Auvergne), R O'Gara (Ireland and Munster), C Hodgson (England and Sale Sharks), M Dawson (England and Wasps), D Peel (Wales and Llanelli Scarlets), G Cooper (Wales and Newport Gwent Dragons), C Cusiter (Scotland and Borders).

Forwards: G Rowntree (England and Leicester), A Sheridan (England and Sale Sharks), M Stevens (England and Bath), G Jenkins (Wales and Cardiff Blues), J White (England and Leicester), J Hayes (Ireland and Munster), G Bulloch (Scotland and Glasgow), S Thompson (England and Northampton), A Titterrell (England and Sale Sharks), S Byrne (Ireland and Leinster), D Grewcock (England and Bath), B Kay (England and Leicester), M O'Kelly (Ireland and Leinster), D O'Callaghan (Ireland and Munster), P O'Connell (Ireland and Munster), M Owen (Wales and Newport Gwent Dragons), R Hill (England and Saracens), N Back (England and Leicester), M Williams (Wales and Cardiff Blues), L Moody (England and Leicester), S Taylor (Scotland and Edinburgh), M Corry (England and Leicester), L Dallaglio (England and Wasps),

A fair selection. The Welsh are already whining about there being 20 Englishmen selected on a rugby forum I'm on.

Looks a sound squad to me. Wilkinson might still tour I think. O'Gara should probably start over Jones, but we'll see.

dont agree i think a gara is fornicating dreadful he stagnates the back line which is why the irish always bring in humphreys when they look to give the ball width. Think Jones has come on leaps n bounds since moving to france.

hainvg said that im gonna contradict myself in a way and say whether the taffies like it or not we wont beat the blacks playing to their strengths and spinning it wide at every opportunity is playing into their hands Im afraid.

its a bit unfortunate.

the old guard being re-instated certianly signals intent as to how they will play it hard and uncomprimsing up front, dont expect to see too many fireworks out wide in the first hlf of the opening test thats for sure.

Yes, it's a horses for courses selection (Tindall, Dallaglio, Back, Greenwoood) etc.

No matter how good new kids on the block like Henson are supposed to be..so people have been there and done it, and you need that on a tour.

yip and to be frank henson wouldnt make my 15 anyway id play both the irish lads. (O dris and D'arcy)

i think outside his game for england henson is massively overated and did well v england cos he was plaiyng agianst a 19 yr oild debutant who was in over his depth.

i dont rate henson as highly as many. In fact i think shanklin is a better player.

p.s. did anyone see him on soccer am crickey they took the piss incessently, "he can always be found coming out of church on a sunday morning"

he didnt know where to put his face, funny stuff.

O'Gara is awful, he almost single handedly handed the crunch game to Wales last month. Ireland were light years better once he was replaced.

Jones is steady but not spectacular, I still think he'll probably startt though.

Henson is only 23 dont forget and he had a pretty good six nations not just the England game.

i thought he was weak against france, had a very poor game indeed. Did nothing of great note against the irish shanklin was the star back.

Cant afford that vs the all blacks.
23 or not.

dont buy the hype just yet.

Shanklin is quality.

Martin Williams was our best player by a long way he should definitely be in the starting fifteen.

OK, there's a XV here of:

1. Sheridan

2. Titterell

3. Stevens

4. Grewcock

5. O'Callaghan

6. Moody

7. Back

8. Taylor

9. Cusiter

10. O'Gara

12. Greenwood

13. Horgan

11. Hickie

14. Balshaw

15. Murphy



Now there are some decent players here (back row) but this is a collection of players who are mostly average, off form or just liabilities.

Do you really want this XV in NZ?

but that wont be the team will it.

and there still some quality players there, hickie is massivley underated and should have gone on the last tour in my opinion.

youve basically picked the 15 guys out of a squad of 44 that are the weakest combination. That team resembles nothing close to what the test team will be in fact there are only a handful who may even challenge for the bench (murphy, hickie, o gara, stevens, grewcock, back, moody)

the rest are going as the midweek sqauad and if they perform above their present levels they may stand a chance of going through to challenge for a test spot.

no offence but its a daft post.

J wrote:but that wont be the team will it.

and there still some qaulity players there, hickie is massivley underated and should have gone on the last tour in my opinion.

No, it won't be the team. But these aren't the kind of players you want - half of them haven't a hope in Hades of pushing for a test spot. What about Davies and McBryde at hooker and the Jones boys at prop? Better than that shower. And I'm English. But a front row forward.

Balshaw's mum must be sorting out Woodward.


I just think you're better off taking players who are solidly in the national side (eg Mefin Davies) rather than guys who are substitutes or who've not been in the suad for ages, regardless of heritage.

Basically in picking his RWC faves and going back to habits like picking Balshaw and not picking Cueto, Woodward is just reverting to type.

I'll still be cheering like buggery though. Almost an hour's hard bargaining with the missus yesterday got me all-dayers for the test matches as long as I only watch the other games socially.

yeah you have a point there no cueto is a glaring omission.

cant really comment on the murky world of the front row its not a place ive ever wanted to be, too busy poncing around with the backs me.

what with this and the ashes its gonna be a messy summer

up early hours to catcht eh rugby and all day BBQ's follwed by being put to bed at 4 in the arvo

Cueto isn't a test Lion. He is small, and can ONLY play on the wing. There are others above him in the pecking order in my view.

i had this argument with my dad Cueto is not small he is nearly as heavy as ben cohen.

if 6 ft and fiftteen stone is small how big do you like em mate?


cueto would be in for me, think he and matt stevens were our finds of the season

J wrote:i had this argument with my dad Cueto is not small he is nearly as heavy as ben cohen.

if 6 ft and fiftteen stone is small how big do you like em mate?


cueto would be in for me, think he and matt stevens were our finds of the season

Cueto is not a small man.

I know it's a tour but with 44 players and only a handful of games you can afford to take out-and-out wingers. NZ will likely have one out-and-out winger and one guy who plays all his best rugby there.

For me there are some bad calls, but I can understand Dawson (who I dislike intensely) and Balshaw getting places, but John Hayes is abysmal. He's probably second only to Al Baxter in the worst scrummagers currently playing at international level.

Sorry, my wrong then. I thought he was.

fair enough mate, my old man did too, reckons he was max 13 stone, easy tnner that was he listed as 14.12.

could be he looks smaller than he is.

Dissapointed with the selection not just Welsh bias, but I think there are two many aging Englishmen and too many Irish.

I will run down my opinion of the team starting with the back.

Scrum Halfs.
Peel - No doubt
Cooper - Fairly suprised but a good selection.
Dawson - Poor 6 nations - Peter Stringer very unlucky. Lets not forget his issues in the last tour.
Cussiter - Not the best Scrum Half in Scotland - Blair is better.

No 10's.
O Gara - Poor 6 nations, but I think worthy of selection on his past form.
Jones - Still not convinced, but come on leaps and bount since his move.
Hodgson - Poor 6 nations, but thought he would make it as Woodward is a fan - No Surprises, No complaints.

Centres
BOD capt - Good call on selection not sure about being captain.
D'Arcy - I agree, a 100% D'Arcy is a test certainty.
Henson - Overated player, but well worthy of his squad place.
Shanklin - Underated Player, well worthy.
Greenwood - Hasn't played much, but not doubting his quality so fair enough.
Horgan - Overated player, would rather have seen Sonny Parker (who usually is picked ahead of Shanklin) in here.
Ollie Smith - Playing well for club so maybe, but then there are some top Welsh players who are doing the same (playing well for club) unproven.

Wings/Full Backs.
Shane Williams - Good.
Josh Lewsey - Good.
Denis Hickie - I rate Hickie, but not on the basis of this season, a host of players have played better - Rhys Williams, Sean Lamont, Mark Ceuto.
Ian Balshaw - WTF - Talk about the pillar of the defence, where is Kevin Morgan!!!!!
Gareth Thomas - Not on this season, but is a quality player.
Jason Robinson - As Gareth Thomas.

Forwards.
Props.
Gethin Jenkins - Good.
Julian White - Yep, no problems.
Graham Rowntree - Yes,
Stevens - Yes.
Johnny Hayes - Yes.
Sheridan - Again unproven. I would have gone for the world class but injured Duncan Jones here. If you haven't seen him this season for the Ospreys then you've missed something - he is BETTER than Jenkins.

Hookers.
Bulloch - Fair call, not great but okay I suppose.
Byrne - No Complaints.
Thompson - WTF, the guy is awful - cost England dear in the 6 nations.
Titteral - The same here, poor selection. For the English two I would have goe for Mark Reegan (best hooker in the Britain) and one of Mefin Davies or Barry Williams (retired from international Rugby, but playing very well for the Ospreys).

Second rows.
O Kelly - Yes,
O Connell - Yes (should have been captain).
O Callaghan - No - I think Brent Cockbain was worthy of the call up.
Ben Kay - Yes.
Danny Grewcock - No, a liability in that he gives away penalty after penality - Murray of Scotland, Robert Siddoli and O Callaghan of Ireland are better options.

Flankers
Back - No chance, too old, past his prime, won't last the tour. Colin Charvis is one of the worlds finest flankers now - yet he is ommited.
Richard Hill - To injury prone, again aging player - Dafydd Jones is a class act but the player who I would have selected above Hill was Simon Easterby of Ireland - absolute class.
Martyn Williams - Yep, player of the 6 nations.
Lewis Moody - Yep, Englands play of the 6 nations.

No 8's.
Simon Taylor - Still awaiting full fitness but is class so yes.
LD - I have no problems with LD making the cut, but thank goodness he is not captain.
Martin Corry - Yes Class, good shout.
Michael Owen - Good shout, can play in the second row also.

fair assessement stu tho i think you do Richard hill down, he is the best blindside flanker in the world when fit and he is only 31, you can include betsen in that as well. he will play in the next world cup and I think he is the one you can take as your "injury" risk.

How you make Charvis up there with the best back rowers in the world is beyond me a good player by all means but best in the world I think you jest. Dont also forget he fucked up on the last lions tour so what you say for dawson you say for charvis he was at the centre of a lot of the discontent with Henry and was reported as going on the piss instead of training.

Also when he did come on he fucked up as I recall trying to kick the ball out of defence and aussies scored.


I can name several back row men who are better than Charvis in my view, Phil Waugh, George SMith, Richie Macaw, Betsen, hill when fit, Corry, Dallaglio are all better than charvis who is better than Easterby in my book but the rest of it I agree with more or less mate.

Shane Williams is 5'7 and just over 12 stone.

nickd wrote:Shane Williams is 5'7 and just over 12 stone.

ironically enough i think he will be used as an impact player dont think he will start.

If I am not mistaken, I think Colin Charvis made the planet-rugby's world team of 2004. A couple of years back I would have agreed, he is a pompus prat who demanded an extra fee from a broke WRU to do interviews as captain. I will never forget that.

However, I think he has knuckled down since he lost the captaincy and was Wales' player of the Autumn internations (not even close) and Mike Ruddock said he was the first name on the team sheet when fully fit - and remember if he wasn't injured, Martyn Williams' wouldn't have played vs England or in the six nations.

When I read the planet-rugby's team of 2004 though he was the only player who I thought didn't deserve to make the side. I would have replaced him with Simon Easterby - who has been massive for Llanelli under trying times this season. He has is again an out and out blindside and looking at the selection there is only 1 blindside in the squad - and that is the injury prone Hill. Easterby was a cert for me and for me the biggest ommision - given the Charvis didn't play in the 6 nations.

Dafydd Jones is another class blindside who can count himself unlucky.

nickd wrote:Shane Williams is 5'7 and just over 12 stone.

Where did you get that stat from - the Leicester tigers had my cousin down last season at 6 foot 2 also on their website profile. However, he is 5 foot 6 at a push. He was at the Newport website at 5 ft 10.

No way is Shane Williams 12 stone, I would nock at least a stone from that figure and a few inches at height.

Ok each to their own mate, as for blindside think if hill isnt fit you will see a certain Mr Corry playing there with Dall at 8. Also lewis moody will end up at 6 and is more natural to that position. Think there is the cover for sure.

J wrote:Ok each to their own mate, as for blindside think if hill isnt fit you wil see a certain Mr Corry playing there with Dall at 8.

Corry is a better number eight, I would be tempted to swap those two players about. However, Taylor and Owen are going to cause an argument. As good as Corry is, I don't think his test place is assured - especially from Taylor.

I think Charvis/Easterby or Daf Jones should have gone at the expensive of Back. Moody and Williams are world class opensides, don't need another. With Charvis you do have the extra option in that he has played both 6 and 7 with great effect.

Personally would have had another one of those three at the expense of Hill - just think he is coming to the end of the road. The injuries are slowing him down.