BoxRec

After witnessing the recent talk that the legendary Mario Kindelan disgraced himself and his sport by accepting money to under perform against Amir Khan last weekend, I wanted to return to this old topic in general and find out what fights people think were crooked and the reasons behind it.

I'll kick off with Evander Holyfield v Michael Moorer II.

Are you telling me Moorer could get himself into shape for Francois Botha, but not for the guy who'd just ripped up the entire map of the heavyweight division by seeing off the monster that was Mike Tyson? He looked shockingly out of condition, are you going to put this down to over confidence?

And those knockdowns. Hmm not saying the wind was putting him over but come on, Evander was hardly electric that night and how many times has he shaken up an opponent since that fight 8 years ago? Moorer seemed to be going down way too easy to me, even for a guy out of shape.

Ali - Liston II for sure, and maybe the 1st fight as well

I've read that Moore Marciano was fixed to ensure Rocky could retire unbeaten. However if it's true it would seem strange that moore floored Marciano and then kept getting up from knockdowns.

Kilburn wrote:After witnessing the recent talk that the legendary Mario Kindelan disgraced himself and his sport by accepting money to under perform against Amir Khan last weekend, I wanted to return to this old topic in general and find out what fights people think were crooked and the reasons behind it.

I'll kick off with Evander Holyfield v Michael Moorer II.

Are you telling me Moorer could get himself into shape for Francois Botha, but not for the guy who'd just ripped up the entire map of the heavyweight division by seeing off the monster that was Mike Tyson? He looked shockingly out of condition, are you going to put this down to over confidence?

And those knockdowns. Hmm not saying the wind was putting him over but come on, Evander was hardly electric that night and how many times has he shaken up an opponent since that fight 8 years ago? Moorer seemed to be going down way too easy to me, even for a guy out of shape.

I think you might be over-rating Moorer. He was a pretty lousy champion and trainer, and his chin had a certain delicacy to it.

J-C wrote:I've read that Moore Marciano was fixed to ensure Rocky could retire unbeaten. However if it's true it would seem strange that moore floored Marciano and then kept getting up from knockdowns.

Nah can't see this one really, Marciano really put some hurt on Moore that night, Moore was completly out of it at the end, and had put up a good display before this.

Plus Moore is one of my hero's

I always thought tough guy Frankie Swindell went down ridiculously easily against Herbie Hide. Maybe he just didn't fancy it on the night but I'm sure he was grinning when the ref waved it off.

I've always thought the two Ali/Liston fights were legit.
In the first, Liston is clearly trying to decapitate a blinded Clay in the 5th round. And the 2nd - you can see Sonny's foot leave the canvas as Ali lands the punch no one saw...I got the impression Sonny was caught cold by a punch he never saw, and it pretty much short circuited the old man for 10 secs or so.
And yes, I also think Oswald shot JFK

Big Splash - Gary Mason v Tyrell Biggs: I wasn't the only one who thought Biggs took a dive that night - it was pretty blatant.

Khan - Kindelan
A lot of Butterbean fights

Shannon Briggs vs George Foreman. Briggs' promoter said that (apparently) that his charge will never lose in Atlantic City. I think thats where the fight took place.

Foreman won practically every round.

That was a disgrace, Foreman pissed that fight with his still excellent jab.

topper123 wrote:

J-C wrote:I've read that Moore Marciano was fixed to ensure Rocky could retire unbeaten. However if it's true it would seem strange that moore floored Marciano and then kept getting up from knockdowns.

Nah can't see this one really, Marciano really put some hurt on Moore that night, Moore was completly out of it at the end, and had put up a good display before this.

Plus Moore is one of my hero's

The only way in which I see this fight being fixed, was in the ref's handling of the first knockdown. Moore really clouted the shit out of Marciano, and when Rocky got up, he was given a standing 8 count, and then the referee intervened again when Moore went in to finish the job.

I've not seen this on tape, I'm going by accounts of the fight, not sure if it even exists on tape or not.

Moore complained bitterly about the ref's handling of the fight, especially as there was no standing count under the rules in force at the time.

Moore was a murderous puncher, and you have to say he would have had a fair shot of finishing off anyone who he had hurt.

Graham Brett wrote:Ali - Liston II for sure, and maybe the 1st fight as well

Not the second fight Liston went down legit, Ali stood over him so he couldn't get up and Jersey Joe Walcott who wasn't the sharpest pencil in the pack stopped the fight

I've never seen the second fight as Legit. That punch sure didn't look too hard, and it's not like Liston had a glass jaw. He seemed to sure recover pretty quick.

Ali wasn't even in a neutral corner, and Walcott made a fornicating shambles of it. Ali certainly seemed convinced that Liston took a dive, he went fornicating nuts when Liston went down, you could see he was mad as hell. All that Anchor punch was a load of old bollocks to take away the bad taste from the fight.

Kilburn wrote:
I'll kick off with Evander Holyfield v Michael Moorer II..

There aint no fix there, Moorer went down 5 times, with clear punching accuracy and power.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: All that Anchor punch was a load of old bollocks to take away the bad taste from the fight.

I am sure I have an interview of Ali on tape somewhere that was before the Liston rematch where Ali was talking about a 'secret punch' that he had developed.

Delahoya-Hopkins - looked like the dodgest fight(Hopkins did nothing early on)/body punch finnish (do you really bang your fists on the floor when you cant move after a liver shot) I've ever seen - You'd have to question the motive when Oscar has all the money in the world as it is.

Usually fighters won't kiss goodbye to a career for a few quid - usually the judges do it for them. The judges must be bribed in allot of fights. I think obvious dodgy decisions are basically promoters and judges/refs been very friendly.

Castillo-Casamayor (Casa easily outboxed Castillo all night)
Erdei-Garay 1+2 (Garay easilly won both fights)
Otke verus Many
Hoya-Mosley 2 - (ive only watched it once but scored it 8-4 to oscar)
Vanzie-Earl 1+2 (what a suprise 2 terrible decisions twice in a row)

DM - don't remember against who but the ref rescued him
Hatton-Maggee - ref helping hatton up after the KD

I'm also suspicious of fighters going down easy and not putting up a fight at the end of their careers:

Tyson-Spinks - maybe im wrong but i thought spinks went down too easy
Hatton-Phillips - Phillips just came to uncharactistically ropa-dope and survive

[quote="jamesmcdonnell"]I've never seen the second fight as Legit. That punch sure didn't look too hard, and it's not like Liston had a glass jaw. He seemed to sure recover pretty quick.

Ali wasn't even in a neutral corner, and Walcott made a fornicating shambles of it. Ali certainly seemed convinced that Liston took a dive, he went fornicating nuts when Liston went down, you could see he was mad as hell. All that Anchor punch was a load of old bollocks to take away the bad taste from the fight.[/quote]

Spot on

As for Moorer, I know what you mean but he's one of the few I can easily believe COULD genuinely be that bad on any given night.

Ottke-Reid was either the most incompetent piece of officiating I've ever witnessed in my 20-plus years of watching the sport or downright bent.

KOJOE90 wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote: All that Anchor punch was a load of old bollocks to take away the bad taste from the fight.

I am sure I have an interview of Ali on tape somewhere that was before the Liston rematch where Ali was talking about a 'secret punch' that he had developed.

Shit, fighters say that kind of thing all the time.

As for Moorer, at heavyweight, his chin was made of the finest ming dynasty porcelain.

I'm surprised to hear people site Holy-Moorer 2 as a possible fix. I thought Holyfield was in the form of his Heavyweight career, punching the most power he ever had at the weight and coming off the back of the awesome wins over Tyson was in great form.

Coupled with Moorer not really being all that much kop anyway Holyfield just gave him a downright thrashing.

My own 'dodgy' selection:

Bonecrusher KO1 Witherspoon, something was up there, Tim never got stopped in a round by anyone.

Ali v Leon Spinks 1

To set up a rematch for Ali to become the first man to win the title 3 times.

He would never have lost to someone like Spinks Ligit.

jonny wrote:Ali v Leon Spinks 1

To set up a rematch for Ali to become the first man to win the title 3 times.

He would never have lost to someone like Spinks Ligit.

Ali was probably brain damaged and totally shot when that fight happened.

Goz wrote:I'm surprised to hear people site Holy-Moorer 2 as a possible fix. I thought Holyfield was in the form of his Heavyweight career, punching the most power he ever had at the weight and coming off the back of the awesome wins over Tyson was in great form.

Coupled with Moorer not really being all that much kop anyway Holyfield just gave him a downright thrashing.

My own 'dodgy' selection:

Bonecrusher KO1 Witherspoon, something was up there, Tim never got stopped in a round by anyone.

Something WAS up, but it had nothing to do with a fix. Witherspoon's head was all over the place after taking home $90,000 of his 'million dollar' purse against Bruno. He was just pig sick and hadn't done the work he needed to. He tries hard but he is just walloped right from the off and never recovers mate.

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:
Something WAS up, but it had nothing to do with a fix. Witherspoon's head was all over the place after taking home $90,000 of his 'million dollar' purse against Bruno. He was just pig sick and hadn't done the work he needed to. He tries hard but he is just walloped right from the off and never recovers mate.

Yeah, I am aware of the circumstances surrounding Witherspoons royal shafting by Don & Carl, wouldn't be surprised to learn that somehow Tim got his own back by sticking a bundle on BC to win in a round.

I not saying something wasn't wrong with the Ali rematch with Liston, but I don't think it Liston was involved. Watch beyond the punch right till the end - you see the inept refereeing of Jersey Joe Walcott doing I'm not sure what but seemed to realise after Liston got up AND CONTINUED BOXING that he was counted out.

I think the reaction of both fighters show that at least they were not involved in the fix. Ali wouldn't have gone for the kill like he did (before Walcott called it off) if he didn't think Liston wasn't geniunally hurt. Liston was a fearsome puncher and Ali wouldn't have risked getting caught if he feared Liston had enough about him to continue.

The fact that Liston was wailing away at the time of the belated stoppage by Walcott intakes to me that he was geninually hurt but wanted to carry on. His protest when it was waved seemed I think showed geniune shock and disgust at the decision.

Also, I disagree with the opinion that it was a nothing punch, I think it was timed perfectly with Liston walking on to it.

My only doubt about the fight centres on the performance of Walcott, gives me the impression that he had a tidy sum on an Ali win but had his doubts and he thought "I'd better stop this one, now I've got a chance".