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Might cause a stink this concept - now he's retired does Lennox Lewis get into a list of all-time top 10 heavyweights? And not based purely on his size advantage over fighters from 70 years ago, but based on his achievements in his own era against others in theirs?

Personally I reckon he might just about get in at 10.

Yes he does.

He dominated his era & beat every man he faced. You can't ask for more than that.

Chopping Right,

Lewis does get in the top 10. but it because of his size and reach. Without it he wouldnt have had the power and the reach to compete in his era, let alone in past eras.
Do you really think he would have kept Tyson off of him if it werent for his power (coming from his big size) and the crushing, punishing jab (coming from his huge 84`` reach) ?

Do you think if he were only the size of say, John Ruiz or Rahman he would have beat Holifield and Tyson? Or Mercer? Or Tuaman? Even unstable Golota? Do you think he would have had enough without the height, power, weight and reach advantages he enjoyed over all these guys above?

And that comes from a big Lennox fan. But a realistic fan, not a blind or deluded fan.

I don't even have Lewis in my top 20 heavyweights!

jab wrote:Chopping Right,

Lewis does get in the top 10. but it because of his size and reach. Without it he wouldnt have had the power and the reach to compete in his era, let alone in past eras.
Do you really think he would have kept Tyson off of him if it werent for his power (coming from his big size) and the crushing, punishing jab (coming from his huge 84`` reach) ?

Do you think if he were only the size of say, John Ruiz or Rahman he would have beat Holifield and Tyson? Or Mercer? Or Tuaman? Even unstable Golota? Do you think he would have had enough without the height, power, weight and reach advantages he enjoyed over all these guys above?

And that comes from a big Lennox fan. But a realistic fan, not a blind or deluded fan.

I think you misunderstand me. We have to allow him his size advantages within the era he fought in, because he did exist in that era! What I wouldn't say is that he would have beaten Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano simply because he would have been a lot taller and heavier because that is an invalid comparison of eras.

defo, Lennox is great, the era was a pretty good 1 aswell. Noting that Bowe, Holyfield and Tyson weren't always at the top of their game. Lennox was even avoided by Bowe when Bowe was beating Holyfiled. He moved pretty well for a big guy too, he was a highly skills fighter among the heavies. When you actually watch his fights its amazing how rarely he got properly hit, most fighters couldn't touch him. I would rank him very highly. I don't even think its his big advantage that made him good tho, i think he just had great skills. A big guy like that doesn't normally get on top cus they are normally far too slow and not skilled enough, Lewis was an exception even tho Vitali, Willard and Primo made it they are no Lennox in respect to skills.

Lennox is in the Top-20 i'd say -

Though his two biggest wins came Vs well over the hill Holyfield's and Tyson's -

(and the fact remains Holyfield won the second fight Vs Lewis. Again, even Emanuel Stewert has said as much here in the Detroit Freepress during one of his long two-part type stories done on Emanuel Stewert and his long career within boxing. He said he clearly could have seen the second fight going to Holyfield (that says a lot!) - Most ring side observers all felt Holyfield won the fight as well (if one turns off the ridiculous TV commentary the fight looks a lot different).

That said, Holyfield was still way past his better days by then.

Still Lewis had lots of talent, great size and definitely could have competed in most any era.

barry wrote:I don't even have Lewis in my top 20 heavyweights!

Seriously? Post up your top 20, not for abuse, just purely out of interest.

Syntax Error wrote:Yes he does.

He dominated his era & beat every man he faced. You can't ask for more than that.

He never dominated. Every time it seemed he was about to solidify dominance, he got knocked out (McCall and Rahman).

He could maybe be #10 for me mostly on the fact he was a better then average 'true' HW champ (not a paper title holder like Tubbs, Ruiz, Seldon etc.).

lol theres some Lennox non believers, class.

Here's my top 20 heavyweights, but don't expect me to go through defending any of my choices because I'm not going to waste my time doing it!

Heavyweight

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Jim Jeffries
8. George Foreman
9. Sonny Liston
10. Larry Holmes
11. Joe Frazier
12. Max Baer
13. Sam Langford
14. Bob Fitzsimmons
15. Ezzard Charles
16. Gene Tunney
17. Evander Holyfield
18. Peter Jackson
19. John L. Sullivan
20. Tommy Burns

barry wrote:Here's my top 20 heavyweights, but don't expect me to go through defending any of my choices because I'm not going to waste my time doing it!

Heavyweight

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Jim Jeffries
8. George Foreman
9. Sonny Liston
10. Larry Holmes
11. Joe Frazier
12. Max Baer
13. Sam Langford
14. Bob Fitzsimmons
15. Ezzard Charles
16. Gene Tunney
17. Evander Holyfield
18. Peter Jackson
19. John L. Sullivan
20. Tommy Burns

Good list. Personally I'd strongly fancy Lennox over quite a few of those old-timers but I'd probably be shot down in flames by the serious historians out there.

History will be kind to Lennox.

We have a tendency to look at old fighters through rose tinted spectacles. He will get the credit that he is due, when we're all old & having our backsides wiped in some smelly residential home!!!!!

Most people do have Lewis ranked higher than I do, but I just cannot get over the fact that when he was suppose to be in his prime, he was knocked out twice by "nothing special" heavyweights and also that he was very hot and cold throughout his career. He went in and detroyed Golota and Ruddock, but then would snooze through a few decision wins! One thing that no one can argue though is the competition Lewis faced because he dodged no one and fought the best missing only a very few fighters that I would have liked to seen him in with, but that was just as much the fault of others as it was Lewis.

I think because of the era we have all seen, it's easy for us to put Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield and Holmes as top 10 fighters.

Maybe if we were born 50 years earlier we would look at Lennox Lewis like he was just a regular champion.

I think last night showed how 'special' Lewis's win over Golota was. At the time he was thought to be very dangerous b-c of the Bowe fights but we've seen over and over again he just freezes and-or quits vs big punchers (Brewster, Bowe, Lewis, Grant, Tyson).

A look at Lewis's resume and there's no great win on there. The best guys he beat (Ruddock, Morrison, an obese Tua) had SERIOUS flaws and would have been easily beat by many other HWs before the time of Lewis.

Barry you say Lewis lost to bums and shouldnt deserv a place in your top 20.. but what about Dempsey who is number 3 on your list.. he got KO in the first round against a guy with a 36-27 record. and that was 4 years after he had turned pro. although Demspey avenged that loss knocking hiout himself in the 1st round.. just like Lewis did against his 2 ever losses...

there may be debate about whther lewis makes the top 10 or not.. but not making top 20 is abit riduculas

Syntax Error wrote:Yes he does.

He dominated his era & beat every man he faced. You can't ask for more than that.

Yes you can. Yous can ask a top 10 HW not to get knocked out by glorified journeymen twice.

Lewis maybe top 15 but not top 10

Graham Brett wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:Yes he does.

He dominated his era & beat every man he faced. You can't ask for more than that.

Yes you can. Yous can ask a top 10 HW not to get knocked out by glorified journeymen twice.

Lewis maybe top 15 but not top 10

Like Joe Louis? Like Mike Tyson? Like Jack Demspey?

>>>>Barry you say Lewis lost to bums and shouldnt deserv a place in your top 20.. but what about Dempsey who is number 3 on your list..<<<<

For starters I have never said that Lewis fought bums, in fact that is one of the very, very few things that I praise him for...not ducking anyone and fighting the best that was around, with the exception of three, maybe four that he did not fight, so get your facts straight before stating that I said something I didn't! As to Dempsey, Lewis is no where near Dempsey's league and Jack would have walked right through Lewis knocking him out in one, or two rounds!

barry wrote:>>>>Barry you say Lewis lost to bums and shouldnt deserv a place in your top 20.. but what about Dempsey who is number 3 on your list..<<<<

For starters I have never said that Lewis fought bums, in fact that is one of the very, very few things that I praise him for...not ducking anyone and fighting the best that was around, with the exception of three, maybe four that he did not fight, so get your facts straight before stating that I said something I didn't! As to Dempsey, Lewis is no where near Dempsey's league and Jack would have walked right through Lewis knocking him out in one, or two rounds!

sorry mate but that is cobblers. Dempsey is one of the most overated heavies out there, he picked his opponents carefully and never fought the best down to the racial climate back then, if you can see a man of his size walking through someone with Lennox's jab and skills with a suxh a size weight and height disadvatage then wow, you see something in dempsey that i never have.

but each ot their own.

Lewis defo a top ten heavy for me on a par with holmes.

Lewis was always around in the 90s and he was feared by Tyson and Bowe. Maybe Holyfield didn't fear him, but he soon took his lumps when it was his turn. He was slow to get to the top but when he did it may have been after the other top guys prime, but he ruled. There were alot of guys who are considered great and maybe they are but even the great Joe Louis had his bum of the month campaign. You could say you can only beat whos there at the time and Lennox did just that.

J---Anyone that has ever properly researched the career of Dempsey knows that Jack Kearns picked who Dempsey would, or wouldn't fight and along with Tex Rickard there was no fighter, even one as popular as Dempsey that could stand up to those two...especially Rickard. They were signed to fight on a couple of occasions, but it always fell through, not because of anything that Dempsey did. Dempsey was very confident in his skills and he certainly feared no one and there was not a soul on earth that he thought could beat him. By the time that the public was really demanding a Dempsey-Wills bout, Wills was a pretty good ways past his prime and if you have done the research and not just listened to what other people, who have little knowledge of the situation have said, then you will know exactly why the Dempsey-Wills bout did not occur. Wills certainly deserved a shot at the title, but then again so did Sam Langford and so did Joe Jeannette, and Sam McVey as well as a few others and the reason that none of those four ever got a shot it is pretty much the same reason for all four in regards of why! As to Lennox's size, that is something that has been blown way out of proportion as it really meant very little to the top, elite champions...like Dempsey!

thanks for the info Barry but the fact he didnt fight the best surely detracts from his career for whatever reasons.

As for size agreed but size alone doesnt buy you much its also the skills, i think Lenox would have walked all over Jack but there we go, its boring if we all have the same opinions hey

barry wrote:Here's my top 20 heavyweights, but don't expect me to go through defending any of my choices because I'm not going to waste my time doing it!

Heavyweight

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Jim Jeffries
8. George Foreman
9. Sonny Liston
10. Larry Holmes
11. Joe Frazier
12. Max Baer
13. Sam Langford
14. Bob Fitzsimmons
15. Ezzard Charles
16. Gene Tunney
17. Evander Holyfield
18. Peter Jackson
19. John L. Sullivan
20. Tommy Burns

That's a great list! Don't agree with the order of a few boxers... but any man that puts Sullivan (whom I'm related to) and Tunney into thier top 20 list gets respect for me... looks like you know your boxing history!

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