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Maybe Bowe did have some balls?
Posted: 23 May 2005, 15:59
by Chopping Right
I've always been of the school of thought that Riddick Bowe dodged Lennox Lewis, plain and simple, because Lewis beat him at the 1988 Olympics. It seems to be an accepted fact but thinking about that a little more there is one thing that doesn't make sense. Having avoided Lewis like the plague for several years why did Bowe elect to face Jorge Luis Gonzalez in his first WBO defence in 1995? With the benefit of hindsight we know Gonzalez was a complete false alarm who crumbled at the fists of quite a few fighters, but when Bowe faced him in '95 he was a very worrying 23-0 (22 KO) and was considered one of the most dangerous punchers in the division. But not only that, Gonzalez had handed Bowe what I understand was a bit of a beating in the Pan-American Games in 1987, a year before Lennox got his hands on Bowe in Seoul. As I heard it Gonzalez put Bowe down several times in that bout, much worse than Lewis did to him in '88, and the Cuban actually went on to beat Lewis in the final. So if we accept Bowe dodged Lewis as a pro when he could have earned megabucks and avoided much negative publicity, why would he subsequently choose to fight Gonzalez?
Re: Maybe Bowe did have some balls?
Posted: 23 May 2005, 16:04
by Boxer-Slugger
Chopping Right wrote:I've always been of the school of thought that Riddick Bowe dodged Lennox Lewis, plain and simple, because Lewis beat him at the 1988 Olympics. It seems to be an accepted fact but thinking about that a little more there is one thing that doesn't make sense. Having avoided Lewis like the plague for several years why did Bowe elect to face Jorge Luis Gonzalez in his first WBO defence in 1995? With the benefit of hindsight we know Gonzalez was a complete false alarm who crumbled at the fists of quite a few fighters, but when Bowe faced him in '95 he was a very worrying 23-0 (22 KO) and was considered one of the most dangerous punchers in the division. But not only that, Gonzalez had handed Bowe what I understand was a bit of a beating in the Pan-American Games in 1987, a year before Lennox got his hands on Bowe in Seoul. As I heard it Gonzalez put Bowe down several times in that bout, much worse than Lewis did to him in '88, and the Cuban actually went on to beat Lewis in the final. So if we accept Bowe dodged Lewis as a pro when he could have earned megabucks and avoided much negative publicity, why would he subsequently choose to fight Gonzalez?
He knew in his heart that he could beat Gonzalez, but Lennox Lewis is no walkover, and i think he felt that it would be easier to beat Gonzalez than Lewis.
Posted: 23 May 2005, 16:29
by Tantum
McCall sure walked over him...
Posted: 23 May 2005, 18:44
by jab
Bowe could beat Lewis in the pros. Amators and pros are worlds apart. There is no comparision.
Bowe didnt fight Lewis because he could make more money fighting other people and by the time Lewis became financially rewarding and they were supposed to fight, Lewis was pulverised by McCall. After that Bowe was destroyed by a young Golota and so they couldnt fight anymore. Bowe had a very short peak because of his overeating habits, but during his prime, the raw Lewis was no match for him.
Posted: 23 May 2005, 20:56
by Boxer-Slugger
Tantum wrote:McCall sure walked over him...
He hit him with a good puch, he went down and got up very wobbly and the ref stopped the fight, Mccall did not walk over him, in the rematch Lewis beat the crao out of McCall and then he cries like a little pussy cause he can't get into lewis.
Re: Maybe Bowe did have some balls?
Posted: 23 May 2005, 21:11
by Grimm
Chopping Right wrote:I've always been of the school of thought that Riddick Bowe dodged Lennox Lewis, plain and simple, because Lewis beat him at the 1988 Olympics. It seems to be an accepted fact but thinking about that a little more there is one thing that doesn't make sense. Having avoided Lewis like the plague for several years why did Bowe elect to face Jorge Luis Gonzalez in his first WBO defence in 1995? With the benefit of hindsight we know Gonzalez was a complete false alarm who crumbled at the fists of quite a few fighters, but when Bowe faced him in '95 he was a very worrying 23-0 (22 KO) and was considered one of the most dangerous punchers in the division. But not only that, Gonzalez had handed Bowe what I understand was a bit of a beating in the Pan-American Games in 1987, a year before Lennox got his hands on Bowe in Seoul. As I heard it Gonzalez put Bowe down several times in that bout, much worse than Lewis did to him in '88, and the Cuban actually went on to beat Lewis in the final. So if we accept Bowe dodged Lewis as a pro when he could have earned megabucks and avoided much negative publicity, why would he subsequently choose to fight Gonzalez?
Thank GOD I am not the only person that realizes this.
Posted: 23 May 2005, 22:34
by Tantum
the champ wrote:He hit him with a good puch, he went down and got up very wobbly and the ref stopped the fight, Mccall did not walk over him, in the rematch Lewis beat the crao out of McCall and then he cries like a little pussy cause he can't get into lewis.
Beating someone fresh out of drug rehab with severe emotional problems... That is totally something to be proud of.
Posted: 24 May 2005, 00:24
by Boxer-Slugger
Tantum wrote:the champ wrote:He hit him with a good puch, he went down and got up very wobbly and the ref stopped the fight, Mccall did not walk over him, in the rematch Lewis beat the crao out of McCall and then he cries like a little pussy cause he can't get into lewis.
Beating someone fresh out of drug rehab with severe emotional problems... That is totally something to be proud of.
Who's stupid in that case? Right McCall, if he was so mentally ill that night, then why was he in a professionnal boxing ring?
Posted: 24 May 2005, 03:20
by Chopping Right
the champ wrote:He hit him with a good puch, he went down and got up very wobbly and the ref stopped the fight, Mccall did not walk over him, in the rematch Lewis beat the crao out of McCall and then he cries like a little pussy cause he can't get into lewis.
I agree with the first point, Lewis should have been allowed to continue, although he was VERY wobbly and might have been stopped soon after. Might have told us something about Lennox' recuperative powers though. Not so sure Lewis "beat the crap" out of McCall in the rematch, in fact Lennox was hitting him with free shots and McCall still didn't snap out of his mental breakdown. The fight was too weird to be evaluated as a boxing match really.
Posted: 24 May 2005, 03:31
by Chopping Right
I'm not saying Bowe didn't dodge Lewis in this thread, because it certainly looked that way at the time, but various other things about Bowe's brief career just don't fit in. In fact about the same time he was facing Gonzalez he fought Herbie Hide, another weak-chinned puncher, but at the time unbeaten with lots of KO's, who Bowe later said hit him harder than anyone. Then he goes on to fight Golota twice, another unbeaten that no-one was that keen on fighting. Now in no way am I comparing Lennox to Gonzalez, Herbie and the Foul Pole but Lewis wasn't the future hall-of-famer we all know about now back in the 92-95 period, he was just a very good prospect with an excellent pedigree - but Bowe was HW champion, so I find it hard to believe he didn't fancy the job. Strange bloke Bowe..
Posted: 24 May 2005, 12:46
by Boxer-Slugger
Chopping Right wrote:the champ wrote:He hit him with a good puch, he went down and got up very wobbly and the ref stopped the fight, Mccall did not walk over him, in the rematch Lewis beat the crao out of McCall and then he cries like a little pussy cause he can't get into lewis.
I agree with the first point, Lewis should have been allowed to continue, although he was VERY wobbly and might have been stopped soon after. Might have told us something about Lennox' recuperative powers though. Not so sure Lewis "beat the crap" out of McCall in the rematch, in fact Lennox was hitting him with free shots and McCall still didn't snap out of his mental breakdown. The fight was too weird to be evaluated as a boxing match really.
Yeah, and Lewis didn't even go for the kill, wondering what was going on.
Posted: 25 May 2005, 07:49
by overhand_right
Before Bowe won the world title he saw Lewis destroy the much feared Razor Ruddock in 2 easy rds.
By the time Bowe won hiw WBOgus belt he had watched his old buddy JL Gonzalez accumulate an undefeated record by crudely whacking a series of scrubs, and looking extremely crude, predictable & short of stamina in the process.
That is why he signed to fight Gonzalez, because it was obvious Gonzalez had not progressed as a pro, didnt train and was waiting to get knocked out.
The facts are when Bowe won the title he dropped the WBC belt to avoid Lewis, & defended vs a washed up ex-champ, a trial horse, and a man who he had already beaten (who he managed to lose his titles to).
Posted: 25 May 2005, 08:10
by Chopping Right
overhand_right wrote:By the time Bowe won hiw WBOgus belt he had watched his old buddy JL Gonzalez accumulate an undefeated record by crudely whacking a series of scrubs, and looking extremely crude, predictable & short of stamina in the process.
That is why he signed to fight Gonzalez, because it was obvious Gonzalez had not progressed as a pro, didnt train and was waiting to get knocked out.
I think that probably is true, although it still seems odd to voluntarily go for Gonzalez, Hide and Golota when he ran from his mandatory obligations. Maybe he just had a mental block on Lennox. I remember at the time he was angling for a fight with Mike Tyson which he definitely did fancy, and by the end of 1995 he was looking quite useful again (knockdown against Holyfield aside), but then he ran into Golota and Tyson got beat up by Evander.
Strangely if Bowe could string any kind of half-decent result together maybe he can still get Tyson now in some kind of nostalgia freakshow.
Posted: 25 May 2005, 08:53
by Tantum
By the time Bowe won the WBO belt, he was already slurring... And extremely so after the third Holyfield fight.
Really sad how they both did each other in. :(
Which is the reason I think fights like Corrales - Castillo should go without a rematch.
Posted: 25 May 2005, 10:23
by Lexus
overhand_right wrote:Before Bowe won the world title he saw Lewis destroy the much feared Razor Ruddock in 2 easy rds.
By the time Bowe won hiw WBOgus belt he had watched his old buddy JL Gonzalez accumulate an undefeated record by crudely whacking a series of scrubs, and looking extremely crude, predictable & short of stamina in the process.
That is why he signed to fight Gonzalez, because it was obvious Gonzalez had not progressed as a pro, didnt train and was waiting to get knocked out.
The facts are when Bowe won the title he dropped the WBC belt to avoid Lewis, & defended vs a washed up ex-champ, a trial horse, and a man who he had already beaten (who he managed to lose his titles to).
Why don't you ever mention the fact that Lewis also screwed up the fight by losing to McCall? I'll tell you what, if Emmanuel Steward could see that major weakness in Lewis' defense which caused him to be vulnerable to a counter right, you bet Eddie Futch would've taken advantage of it.
Posted: 25 May 2005, 11:09
by Chopping Right
Lexus wrote:Why don't you ever mention the fact that Lewis also screwed up the fight by losing to McCall?
I don't see how that can be true, the McCall loss came in September 1994, at least 18 months after Bowe had chucked his WBC belt in the dustbin when Lewis was mandatory.
Posted: 25 May 2005, 13:10
by KO Artist
Tantum wrote:McCall sure walked over him...
Right.
And Rahman.
I doubt Bowe avoided him. If he did I dont know why, Bowe would have beaten Lewis comfortably IMO
Posted: 25 May 2005, 13:12
by Graham Brett
I reckon youre right, John
Bowe would have stopped Lewis before the middle rounds.
Posted: 25 May 2005, 13:18
by Chopping Right
Does anyone remember what reason Bowe gave for not fighting Lewis and dumping the WBC belt at the time? I notice his BoxRec record actually states in the notes for the first Holyfield fight:
"Shortly thereafter Bowe relinquished the WBC title to avoid fighting Lennox Lewis, his mandatory challenger"
...which seems to carve it into the record book, but what was the official reason Bowe gave at the time?
Posted: 25 May 2005, 13:26
by Syntax Error
Whatever way you look at it, Bowe is a pussy!
Any fighter who deliberately avoids his biggest rival is a pussy & should be berated for it!
Posted: 25 May 2005, 15:16
by Lexus
Syntax Error wrote:Whatever way you look at it, Bowe is a pussy!
Any fighter who deliberately avoids his biggest rival is a pussy & should be berated for it!
Poster klompton made a good summary:
klompton wrote:Bowe threw his belt in the trash can and refused to fight Lewis because when he won the undisputed championship he was a promotional free agent, had he completed the tournament that included Lewis-Ruddock and Bowe-Holyfield, he would have been contractually obliged to the promotional outfit that put on the tournament (Main Events?). Thus he opted to stay a free agent and let Lewis be called a paper champ (which is what you are when you are handed the WBC belt twice in a row for doing nothing but A. Sitting on a beach, and B. Beating a crackhead just out of retirement with severe emotional problems. When HBO had already signed Bowe to fight Lewis all Lewis had to do was beat unthreatening challenger Oliver McCall who had lost all of his most important fights. Instead Lewis was knocked out and HBO threw him back onto the scrap heap. When both Lewis and Bowe were making comebacks Lewis was being interviewed live on BBC and Bowe actually called into the show and challenged Lewis to sign a contract for them to fight. No belts (neither of them had belts) just for honor. Lewis' reply was that he was more interested in chasing then champion Michael Moorer. MICHAEL MOORER! That shows you how much he really wanted to fight Bowe.
Posted: 25 May 2005, 16:22
by Chopping Right
Lexus wrote:Syntax Error wrote:Whatever way you look at it, Bowe is a pussy!
Any fighter who deliberately avoids his biggest rival is a pussy & should be berated for it!
Poster klompton made a good summary:
klompton wrote:Bowe threw his belt in the trash can and refused to fight Lewis because when he won the undisputed championship he was a promotional free agent, had he completed the tournament that included Lewis-Ruddock and Bowe-Holyfield, he would have been contractually obliged to the promotional outfit that put on the tournament (Main Events?). Thus he opted to stay a free agent and let Lewis be called a paper champ (which is what you are when you are handed the WBC belt twice in a row for doing nothing but A. Sitting on a beach, and B. Beating a crackhead just out of retirement with severe emotional problems. When HBO had already signed Bowe to fight Lewis all Lewis had to do was beat unthreatening challenger Oliver McCall who had lost all of his most important fights. Instead Lewis was knocked out and HBO threw him back onto the scrap heap. When both Lewis and Bowe were making comebacks Lewis was being interviewed live on BBC and Bowe actually called into the show and challenged Lewis to sign a contract for them to fight. No belts (neither of them had belts) just for honor. Lewis' reply was that he was more interested in chasing then champion Michael Moorer. MICHAEL MOORER! That shows you how much he really wanted to fight Bowe.
Interesting. I'm not saying that this is all the gospel truth but I have always thought it a bit odd Bowe didn't want Lewis just because he beat him once in the amateurs, like I said it didn't worry him with Gonzalez, who although clearly a poor professional had mauled Bowe much worse than Lennox years before. I have to say though I find it equally hard to believe Lewis didn't want Bowe either, Lennox always seemed keen enough to fight the best guys out there until he reached his old age and became inactive. Maybe it was just promotional bullshit that kept them apart, it's happened often enough.
Posted: 25 May 2005, 17:27
by Syntax Error
Lennox was a commentator at one of Bowe's fights (Dokes I think) & he challenged Bowe live on air to a battle. He said forget the money, donate it to Africa & we will fight. Bowe was more interested in calling him a fa**ot that night!
Bowe was just a pussy. He even had the option to fight Ruddock for the right to fight for the title, but chose the easy option, thus leaving Lennox to deal with Ruddock. When Lennox destroyed Razor with his vaunted Right hand, chicken Bowe didn't want to know after that.
Posted: 26 May 2005, 03:14
by Chopping Right
Syntax Error wrote:Bowe was more interested in calling him a fa**ot that night!
Bowe did show his lack of class when he used to say that. There was definitely plenty of bad blood there.
Posted: 30 May 2005, 05:33
by Guest
Chopping Right wrote:Syntax Error wrote:Bowe was more interested in calling him a fa**ot that night!
Bowe did show his lack of class when he used to say that. There was definitely plenty of bad blood there.
Someone say Bad Blood
Ok here is what i remember, i really liked Bowe and was training here with Lewis, and as far as i remember, the biggest reason they didn't fight was because they both had massive ego's and refused to acknowledge the other as ever being superior in any way, whether it was boxing or bowling.
Lewis was the mandatory challenger for only one of Bowe's belts, the one he chucked in the garbage, not the other belts though, they had different mandatory challengers and fighters ranked ahead of Lewis, they issued an ultimatum to Bowe and he responded in kind, with a "who the f#%k are you, i'm the champ" attitude.
They were planning to fight, but McCrackhead and the Polish Peckerwrecker got in the way of those plans, it's true, we were denied a great fight, but from a business standpoint Bowe did what was best for him, he made good money from those Holyfield fights, which he might have missed out on if he lost to Lewis, and it was very possible he would lose, Lewis beat him handily in the Olympics.