BoxRec

Who wins this one.

Holmes once said "Marciano can't hold my jock".

Marciano still holds the record that Holmes was trying to break.

Power Puncher vs. Jibber Jabber.

First of all, and i know holmes apologized, I really lost respect for holmes when he said that especially in fornt of Rockys Brother. Holmes lost a great deal of repsect from the boxing communit too and many never forgot him for those comments. I respect larry though.

Holmes has one of the best jabs ever and a lot of heart with a good chin so It will be hard for marciano to knock him out even late. Holmes has a very good chance of busting up marciano with the jab if he lands, but Marcianos hard to land with a clean punch.
Overall, MArciano is a lot shorter than the 6'4 holmes and when he bends in that crouch hes tough to hit with that jab and because Holmes has to reach down such a long way it will be ackward for holmes and i dont think hell land it as cleanly. ALso, Marciano has in this viewers mind perhaps the best overhand right in history and Holmes is a sucker for a right. I think Marcianos right is just as powerful if not more than shavers. Holmes was more hurt by RENALDO SNIPES RIGHT THAN SHAVERS. I think the rock will get in on holmes and pound him to the body and will get in that right hand and drop Holmes and then the rock will swarm all over Larry not giving him a chance to recover considering how much heart he has and I think rocky will win By TKO 11 . LArry will not be counted out though. Two champions with loads of guts and heart battle in this classsic fight between a boxerr and slugger.

Though Holmes got beat by a boxer in spinks, I think the guys like marciano, tyson styles are made for holmes and i think Tyson would have Koed holmes if holmes was in his prime. especially if they get inside on holmes. and the rock is strong enough to do so.

Grimm wrote:Holmes once said "Marciano can't hold my jock"

Holmes has said quite a few unkind things about other fighters over the years, this jibe just being the most famous. Personally I think he has always had a chip on his shoulder about the general lack of recognition his abilities received when he was fighting, which was jusr an unfortunate side-effect of following the more charismatic Muhammad Ali as the dominant heavyweight champ.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
i think Tyson would have Koed holmes if holmes was in his prime. especially if they get inside on holmes.

I'm not so sure. This may sound crazy given the result but a way over the hill Holmes seemed to be dealing with Tyson better than any of his previous opponents until he got caught. Larry's reflexes were gone and he took the fight at short notice...

Holmes could take it and come back, Tyson couldn't. At some point in the fight Tyson will have his way and Holmes has proved that he can get himself back into a fight. BUT at some point Holmes will have his way and Tyson will psychologically unravel. Tyson can't impose himself after being on the receiving end for 2-3 rounds. Holmes would KO him in the championship rounds.

I like Holmes over Marciano too but your analysis has made me think that maybe Rocco had a better chance than I first thought.

Holmes esp. earlier in his career was a surly character but one must remember that at that time in his career no-one was giving him any respect and Marciano's brothers were also not being respectful to Holmes, saying things like he'd never reach their sibling's record or greatness. Holmes was just pissed off and said a flippant remark . . .bad thing to say but hey everyone's human.

In this fight I see Holmes stopping Rocky on cuts. Holmes had the sharpest left jab in HW history and it really could cut you to ribbons if you had that type of skin tissue. Marciano was a slow starter and once he began connecting to Larry around rounds 7-8 he'd already be a piece of hamburger steak. Holmes TKO 9

Chopping Right wrote:

Grimm wrote:Holmes once said "Marciano can't hold my jock"

Holmes has said quite a few unkind things about other fighters over the years, this jibe just being the most famous. Personally I think he has always had a chip on his shoulder about the general lack of recognition his abilities received when he was fighting, which was jusr an unfortunate side-effect of following the more charismatic Muhammad Ali as the dominant heavyweight champ.

I agree Holmes came along at what was for him an unfortunate time in boxing history. He beats Norton in a terrific fight that could've gone either way, and then ... nothing!

Holmes, in his prime, lacked the kind of opposition that could further validate his own greatness. Think of it, five of his first seven defenses were against Alfredo Evangelista, Ossie Ocasio, Lorenzo Zanon, Leroy Jones and Scott LeDoux -- guys who barely stood a chance. He thwarts Ali's big comeback attempt (a sad day in boxing). Then later defends against the likes of David Bey, Lucien Rodriguez, Scott Frank, Tex Cobb, etc. (not necessarily in that order).

I never have liked supposing who would win matches between fighters of such different eras, anyway, especially the dream matches among HWs. With welters, middles, light-heavies, the playing field is a little more level for such guesswork. But as great as Marciano was -- surely the greatest HW of his own era -- I just don't see a guy of his size and style could've hung with a fighter like Holmes (in his prime) with Holmes jab and overall boxing skills and with such a size and reach disparity.

In my mind it would be no contest.

King pin how oculd you say no contest???? Im pretty sure Rocky is better than tim witherspoon and ken norton and renaoldo snipes and earnie shavers.

U can have ur opinion that Holmes will beat him, but to say rocky wont even give him a contest is not a wise thing to say. ROcky isnt a lucien Rodriguez. All great champions are a contest, and too say the Rock will roll over to holmes and let holmes dominate the fight is ridiculous. anyone else with me on THe rock getting to holmes and beating hiM??

Holmes could take Rocky's punches... I'm not so sure of the opposite.

Marciano was dropped by old men.

A 30/31 year old Holmes would be way too much for Rocky to handle... In every respect.

Too much power, speed, size, chin and skills for Rocky. If anyone were to wear down and KO Rocky, it would be Holmes.

BrocktonBlockbuster ... I am in no way trying to disrespect Marciano and his greatness or place in boxing history. All I'm really saying is that, when you start trying to decide who would win a fight between HWs from such different eras, I don't think you can deny that athletes (and people in general) are just getting progressively bigger and stronger as the decades go by.

Marciano was less than 6 feet tall and weighed about 185-190 pounds. In his era, that was about par with the opposition -- which he destyroyed. However, to think that a clone of Rocky Marciano could be put in the ring 30 years later and beat a prime Larry Holmes, with the size and reach disparity and Holmes boxing skills, I just don't see it happening.

Could a clone of Alan Page (240-245 pounds) play defensive tackle for the Minnesota Vikings today? Probably not. Considering the size of today's offensive lines or even its running backs, I just think he would be way too small. But was he not one of the best DTs of his time? Most definitely!!

Size in boxing is so overated. The main advantage it gives you is the chance of better paydays because you're likely to be in a heavier division, and also because you hold more marketing power since the common man in the street seems to equate size with skill. Size does not equal skill, and boxing is a skill sport.
Look no further than fat, 5 foot 9, super-middleweight James Toney, who has ate his way to glory through the heavier divisions. It must be like, over 80% or something of his opponent's that have had a natural size advantage over him, yet he's beat nearly them all. How ironic that the only man, allegedly, to beat him twice is Montell Griffin - who is two inches smaller!

Head hunter Holmes would have loads of trouble trying to catch Toney with his suzie Q and Mr. Thumb. Larry was hurt by a body shot from the slothful Gerry Cooney, would be interesting to see how he'd cope with the fast hands of Toney inside. Not saying Toney would win, I think it would be a Holmes UD, with him score, score, scoring with the jab, with Jabba doing his usualy 1 minute a round workrate in the center ring.

Don't agree about the power issue. Marciano was up like a flash both times and he kept his wits. Looked like he got caught cold both times - in the Walcott fight he had a funny 'deer caught in the headlights' expression, while Moore put him flat on his face.

Holmes, on the other hand, went down hard in the Snipes and Shavers fights. In my opinion, that could easily have been a TKO win for Snipes, in fact, in a non-Don King ring it probably would have been. Credit where it's due, though, because he did awesome to recover from that absolute bomb Ernie exploded off his chin. No shame in getting kayo'd from a shot like that.

There's also Mike Tyson - someone who was smaller than Marciano, and who actually slaughtered Holmes and knocked him spark out. Granted, Holmes was out of shape and couldn't recover (as I personally think he would have done). Whether he would recover to win is up for debate, but the fact remains, unfit or not, he didn't block a short left/overhand right from a smaller, stockier guy, and such a punch was Marciano's money shot.

As for a Holmes - Marciano fight, I think Holmes stops him in the late rounds via cuts. He would start the first 3 or 4 rounds dancing around with the jab, Rock would get close in the middle rounds but be caught with the similar artillary that helped end the Scott LeDoux fight, and which ended the careers of Scott Frank and Leroy Jones. Rocky's eyes would be puffy from the jabbing of the first few rounds, but the thumbing would close them both leading into the 9th. Soon after, between the 9th and 11th I think the ref stops him on his feet as he takes too many, while blindly following Holmes around trying to cut him off. Either that, or it could be a Snipes-esque 'Don King stoppage' with Rocky protesting afterward. If Marciano is to win it would be in those middle rounds - I wouldn't bet on it, but no way is it impossible.

Remember also that Holmes was having all sorts of difficulty trying to become heavier for many years in his pro career. Couldn't hit 210. He was worried about his strength, and this, in my opinion, may be one of the factors that led him to become such a good box-mover. That and the influence of Muhammad Ali. Maybe also the memory of his bizarre actions after Duane Bobick knocked him down. The fear of the humiliation of getting caught, etc.

Anyway, point is, Marciano was a cut 180, sometimes approaching 190. He may well have fought at 195-200 if the training camp hadn't been so intense. Holmes, if he'd went through Marciano's training camp, may well have been circa 205, perhaps even lower. Holmes was tall and lean, but he was a good way off the trim behemoths running the show today.

Thanks Manos...

I really appreciate your thoughts on weight. I think that it is an infleuncing factor but not as much as it is accredited. Holyfield was a Crusier who beefed up and took on some huge men so why couldn't Rocky? If he had the benefit of today's knowledge on diet etc then Marciano could maintain his sueprfit standards and come in closer to 200.

I'm not sure that these huge HWs of today are really that much better. So many of the fights are 2 coloussi shuffling into range, both missing haymaker rights and then clinching.

By the way manos where did you get the info on Holmes worrying about his strength and wanting to put weight on?

Ezzard wrote:By the way manos where did you get the info on Holmes worrying about his strength and wanting to put weight on?

Thanks for the kind words, Ezzard. I remembered ages ago reading a post on here, where someone had actually talked to a contemporary Holmes about it! Just did a search before I typed this and found the thread:

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=81517#81517

205 pounds without Marciano style training!

Size does matter... You're comparing apples and oranges.

Toney is the most skilled heavyweight... But he won't beat Klitschko, because he's too small, period.

Thanks again Manos.

Holmes did hang on in there at the end of his reign and was picking opponents who just weren't that good or who simply didn't have the experience.

Tantum, weight is a factor, no doubt, but maybe not always as pertinent as some make out.

Manos ... I'll agree size in boxing is overrated, but only until you introduce skill. Krasniqi beats the much bigger Whittaker because Whittaker is weak on skills. Brock beats the much bigger McCline because McCline is weak on skills.

However, you give the skills of a prime Holmes to guys as big as Whittaker or McCline and I don't think guys like Krasniqi and Brock win those fights. Not that these are perfect examples in relation to Marciano and Holmes, but I think my point is fairly clear.

That and the fact that, when you compare HWs from such different eras, it's easy to let things like bias and nostalgia get in the way of logic and reason. Undeniably, athletes are getting bigger, stronger and faster with each decade that passes. You'll notice, however, that I don't say better. Amidst his own peer group, Marciano was the very best HW of his time. But you take him out of the 50s and drop him in the ring in 1980 with a prime Holmes ...

You see what I mean? We humans are so enamored with lists, as if it's not enough to say Marciano was a great fighter without having to "rank" him (or any other great fighter) on some list and then defend his ranking with ardent loyalty.

Like I said earlier, Alan Page was one of the greatest defensive tackles of his time, but you drop him in an NFL line today and he'd never make it. It's not a knock against him. It's just the truth. And that's how I feel about the great heavyweights of the past. Dempsey was great, but in his own time. Marciano was great, but in his own time. Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes ... it's all the same.

Just hope one of these current HWs will someday be worth all that loyalty and admiration.

Tantum ur reasons are bullshit and u have no idea what ur talking about.
I thought i already explained that marcianos style would make it hard for holmes to land a hard clean jab and marciano is strong enough to get inside holmes or at least do damage to his body and though he has a short reach, i think he can land his suzie Q on holmes and then batter holmes to submission,

Tantum wrote:Holmes could take Rocky's punches... I'm not so sure of the opposite.

Marciano was dropped by old men.

A 30/31 year old Holmes would be way too much for Rocky to handle... In every respect.

Too much power, speed, size, chin and skills for Rocky. If anyone were to wear down and KO Rocky, it would be Holmes.

Amen.

Im pretty sure rocky had just as a good chin. the guy got his nose sliced open and only made him angrier. he was never hurt in those two knockdowns and the left hook walcott hit marciano with knocked out charles cold. it barely fazed marciano. Marciano is as yough as they come and he had the power to stop holmes and the stamina

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:Im pretty sure rocky had just as a good chin. the guy got his nose sliced open and only made him angrier. he was never hurt in those two knockdowns and the left hook walcott hit marciano with knocked out charles cold. it barely fazed marciano. Marciano is as yough as they come and he had the power to stop holmes and the stamina

He couldnt stop Holmes, to think so is pure Fantasy.

Shavers, Norton, Cooney all hit harder than Rocky, where bigger and hit Holmes.

They didnt stop him.

The Cruiserweight would be the one ground down in 10 rounds.

NO ur an idiot. HAHAHAHA COOney norton and shavers did not have more power than rocky lol . especially cooney and norton. cooney was one handed fighter and his best punch isnt better than marcianos. Marciano is one of the most powerful punchers ever. any expert will rate him over cooney and norton and the same with shavers though i think he had more power than shavers. rocky is really a 215LB . he trained himself down to a trim 185 cause training was so intense as mentioned by someone else. Rocky with todays supplements and equipment would prob be 200 lbs at leeast . and rockys strong enough to take on these big guys hes very big boned and a lot more power than his size. Power u dont know what power is if u dont think rocky has more power than those guys.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:NO ur an idiot. HAHAHAHA COOney norton and shavers did not have more power than rocky lol . especially cooney and norton. cooney was one handed fighter and his best punch isnt better than marcianos. Marciano is one of the most powerful punchers ever. any expert will rate him over cooney and norton and the same with shavers though i think he had more power than shavers.

Your clearly 5 years old. How many Shavers, Norton or Cooney fights have you seen? At his best Cooney's left hook carried awesome power. He Ko'ed Norton in less than 3 minutes, Stopped Jimmy Young, and KO'ed Ron Lyle in a few rounds.

These fights demonstrated far superior power to the mickey mouse heavyweight that is Rocky Marciano

Rocky Ko'ed who to prove he was in this league of power?

100yr old Joe Louis?

LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT Archie Moore? (i guess Ali is a world class puncher as well then!)

LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT Ezzard Charles?

Roland La Starza??? ....oh wait, he couldnt KO him.

You mate, are truely a fool if you think that Marciano was in this league of power.

Dirty Marciano looked great....hitting low, throwing elbows, and hitting guys when they are down.

rocky is really a 215LB . he trained himself down to a trim 185 cause training was so intense as mentioned by someone else.

Rocky with todays supplements and equipment would prob be 200 lbs at leeast . and rockys strong enough to take on these big guys hes very big boned and a lot more power than his size. Power u dont know what power is if u dont think rocky has more power than those guys.

Marciano's most impressive Ko's came by accumlation and tiring of opponents, not the one punch power which you seem to be close to orgasm over.

Marciano was weak and puny in comparison to the God-like Holmes. Holmes met, fought and BEAT better more powerful men that the dirty Rocky.

The Same cannot be said of Marciano.

Power, what do u have the stupidest boxing mind in the world??? u make me so mad with ur lack of boxing knowledge. the fact that u think ken norton and cooney had more power than marciano is enough to declare u an idiot.
u really sound like an idiot with those comments. I NEVER SEE AN EXPERT RATE GERRY COONEYS POWER AS GOOD AS ROCKY MARCIANOS.

rocky Marciano wore down opponents with punches???? tell that to top contender Rex Layne a tough 6'0 200lb contender who got hit with a suzie Q and his legs wobbled and just liek that he was out. How bout jersey joe walcott who got hit with one of the best punches in hisotry and was unconsious??/ and though joe louis was past his prime he could still fight. archie moore fought muhammad ali way past his best at 50 and any fight could have beat archie then. I NEVER SEE EXPERTS RATE ONE OF COONEYS KO'S AS GOOD AS MARCIANOS ON WALCOTT??? Rocky Marciano beat 4 hall of famers in Jersey Joe walcott ( who would have beat all holmes contenders) and ezzard charles (boxed circles around cooney) and an old joe louis (greatest heavyweight all time) and archie moore(really got himself ready for marciano, most knockouts all time).

Now lets see who holmes beat?? ummm renaldo snipes( o yeah he almost koed holmes) scott ledoux, lucie rodriguez, alfredo envengalista, tim witherspoon ( o yeah holmes lost), a past his prime norton, gerry cooney( who wasnt that good), earnie shavers who was aging and still nearly Koed holmes, umm , fat leroy??, hahaha lorenzo zanon??
those are sure hall of famers right there. cooney will defientely be in the hall of fame. no no no how bout lorenzo zanon he would definetly beat ezzard charles. trevor berbick would definetly beat walcott. ALL THAT WAS SARCASIM POWER.

o YEAH and marciano did TKO 11 Roland La starza in the title fight so before u give any more bull shit, check ur facts. Regarding holmes, for u to call rocky punny is a disgrace. Rocky is amazingly strong and is better condition than a FLABBY holmes. Rocky is all 185 muscle and big boned so he looks bigger. Rocky is in top 5 most powerful punching heavyweight all time. ask his opponents. But then again accoring to u, a jacked and skilled guy like walcott couldnt beat a ossie oscasio. ROcky Marciano threw so many punches cause he was in such great conditon and that was his style. He was a rough tough guy and feared no one. HE would stop slamming away ad holmes body in the middle rounds and holmeswouldnt land the jab cleanly and marciano would damage holmes and nail the suzie Q and holmes would go down and the fight would be stopped shortly after that. Marciano had more power than all those 80's heavyweight besides tyson. U WANNA COMPARE POWER COMPARE TYSON AND MARCIANO, <<<< these two can hit.

Wins over Hall of Famers, even if they came from a weight down, deserve to be ranked higher than victories over mediocre-to-good fighters.

Let's compare the reigns:

Fact: Larry Holmes 'fought' Muhammad Ali in a complete farce that still leaves a bad taste 25 years later. A sickening spectacle that should be remembered solely for it's political ramifications.

Fact: Larry Holmes' next fight against a HOF'er was light heavyweight Michael Spinks, yep same division as Charles and Moore. Lost twice - contentious or whatever, still didn't do what a bigger man should have done (according to the naysayer's here), and stamp his authority over the smaller pretender.

Apart from those two opponents, Larry Holmes beat a lot of good, perhaps under rated, contenders, but no Hall of Famers. Maybe you could include Tim Witherspoon, but the thing is, he blatantly beat Holmes. Oh yeah, there's also Ken Norton - the man who's always first to be named in an 'undeserving to be in the HOF' thread. Whom Holmes struggled and went through hell against in an admittedly excellent fight.

Marciano on the other hand fought 6 fights against HOF'ers, compared to Holmes' 4.

You could compare the Louis fight to the Ali one, but Walcott (in the first fight) and Charles looked to have plenty of snap left. Yep, they may have been past their best, but they still looked fit enough. An experienced, fit, HOF'er is no match for a fit and hungry young novice, like many of the 1X-0 up and comers Larry fought. A shrewd tactic that - being your own policeman.

As for his punching power - he knocked out plenty of guys with one punch. In fact, I would go so far as to say he was a 'one punch guy'. Maybe you're thinking of the Charles highlight that gets played on Big Fights, where he hits him with about 7 before the fall? If you watch the Louis fight it's a single shot that causes the damage, same with the first Walcott fight, then in the rematch he hits him with an awkward (Snipes like?) follow up, 6 inch right, that you can see puts Jersey Joe into a state of temporary rigor mortis as he falls, before he gets up and seems to misread the count.

Don't know how he couldn't kayo LaStarza when I've got the full fight somewhere and he knocks LaStarza out and through the ropes with a finishing salvo probably more impressive than any Tyson one I've seen. Take it you were refererring to the first fight, which by many accounts should have been a draw. Some nice selective reasoning there.

But sure, sure, at the end of the day size trumps all, I mean, imagine for example Foreman taking on a 5 foot 7 light-heavyweight cum Cruiserweight. Man, a midget like Qawi would have no chance against a monster wrecking ball like Big George, he would be blown away. Oh, wait a minute, that's right - they did fight! Hmm, let's see what happened... oh yeah, he came out and bombed Foreman with an overhand right within like 3 seconds! Yeah, Foreman looked so impressive in that fight didn't he, especially the way it only ended because Qawi gassed over by his corner.

Good Points Manos.

Barry, I want u to read some of Powrer's posts not just about how he belittles marciano but the reason because of the size. I know ur a firm believer that the smaller condtioned powerful and skilled hevayweights are better than overblown out of shape ones. So i want to hear how you would answer to power's reference of Rocky didnt have nay power because he was small and punny and how holmes fought much larger and powerful men.
explain to the viewers, why a dempsey or marciano has just as much power, orr the ability to defeat a much bigger heavyweeight.