BoxRec

Has anyone ever made a famous middleweight computer tournament??? I feel some of the best fights are at middleweight and I already made a heavyweight tournament and I was wondering IS ANYONE INTERESTED IN SEEING ME MAKE A DOUBLE ELIMINATION MIDDDLEWEIGHT TOURNAMENT???

i would like to make one but i need goo feedback and arguments about some matches so we can get some nice debates going. i want people to contribute to my making it. WOULD ANYONE LIKE TO MAKE THE LIST OF THE MIDDLWEIGHTS WHO SHOULD BE IN IT??? I PLAN ON IT BEING 16 MAN. OR SHOULD I GO FOR 32???


I would like to do it with someone but i dont know how. unless we contact by screen name or private messanging.

i BEEN paying a lot more attention to the middlweights recently and watchin some of there fights. I have drawn up a lot of opinions, and stradegies to where i feel i have enough information to make a decent one.

Great idea BB...

My guess is the winner will be out of...

Greb, Monzon, or Hagler

Several years ago Ring did computer tournaments in many division, includin Bantam, Middle, and Light Heavy. I believe that the final at middle was Robinson and Ketchel, Robinson winning aftyer beating Monzon in the semi-final. If memory serves

1.Sugar Ray Robinson
2.Harry Greb
3.Jake LaMotta
4. Marcel Cerdan
5. Tiger Flowers
6. Stanley Ketchel
7. Marvelous Marvin Hagler
8. Carlos Monzon
9. Gene Fullmer
10. Carmen Basilio
11. Emile Griffith
12. Bernard Hopkins
13. Charley Burley
14. Mickey Walker
15. Tony Zale
16. Bob Fiztsimmons
17. Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
18. Tommy Ryan
19. Mike Gibbons
20. Rodrigo Valdez
21. Bennie Briscoe
22. Dick Tiger
23. Rocky Graziano
24. Bobo Olson
25. Nino Benvenuti
26. Joey Giardello
27. Tommy Hearns
28. James Toney
29. Freddie Steele
30. Jeff Smith
31. Les Darcy
32. ?? .

Should I cout roy jones at middlweeight????

Roy Jones at middleweight doesn't really fit, he fought only 2-3 fights there. His defining fight was at 168.

I think you should add Jeff Smith, who Greb said gave him some of his toughest battles. A lot of great middleweights were denied titles in the ND era of the 1910's.

Sherlock: Those choices are spot on. Other than order, the only minor quibbles are that I would add Jeff Smith and take out Conn. I might be a little biased b/c I'm reading Rosenfeld's bio on Burley but there is a strong case to be made that Conn bypassed staying as a middle so he wouldn't have to fight the natural state rival in Burley. I would also add Nonpareil Jack Dempsey for historic purposes because he was the first champ and had a long reign beating some good fighters.

Deepak

Conn's move to light-heavy was more for financial reasons than anything else. Conn did avoid Burley, but he was growing out of the weight class anyway.

Burley was a natural 155 when a match with Conn was mooted, while Conn was allready in the higher weigh class. Tommy O'Loughlin, Burley's manager, offered Conn a guarenteed $10, 000 in 1942 when Burley was campaigning out of Minneapolis.

Conn's management could get more money for Conn after his fight with Louis and they were also looking for the rematch.

Besides all this, Burley should definately be in any middleweight tournament, while Conn should be in the higher weight.

I will be interested to see how your idea progresses. Good luck.

dnahar32 wrote:Roy Jones at middleweight doesn't really fit, he fought only 2-3 fights there. His defining fight was at 168.

I think you should add Jeff Smith, who Greb said gave him some of his toughest battles. A lot of great middleweights were denied titles in the ND era of the 1910's.

Sherlock: Those choices are spot on. Other than order, the only minor quibbles are that I would add Jeff Smith and take out Conn. I might be a little biased b/c I'm reading Rosenfeld's bio on Burley but there is a strong case to be made that Conn bypassed staying as a middle so he wouldn't have to fight the natural state rival in Burley. I would also add Nonpareil Jack Dempsey for historic purposes because he was the first champ and had a long reign beating some good fighters.
Deepak

Thanks. I'll switch out Jones and Conn for Jeff Smith and Les Darcy (who had a few wins over Smith). Any idea who should be the last enrty?

Could be a Randy Turpin, Mike McCallum, Fred Apostoli, Michael Nunn, etc. Who do you guys think should make the cut?

Does that list look pretty good Brockton?

Sherlock wrote: Any idea who should be the last enrty?

Could be a Randy Turpin, Mike McCallum, Fred Apostoli, Michael Nunn, etc. Who do you guys think should make the cut?

Jock McAvoy or Rubin Carter?

I would put Freddie Steele in the last spot.

I would put Mike McCallum in the last spot. The fights with Toney prove he belongs on the list. An underappreciated great fighter.

I can't see Gene Fullmer, Carmen Basilio or Marcel Cerdan being higher than Tony Zale. He was known as the man of steel, and I know he came from Pittsburgh but he was still one tough guy, did you ever see the body punch he landed on Rocky Graziano right before the follow up left hook that knocked him out? What a one two combo.

cheers M.O.

Sherlock,

Here's how the middleweights compare:
Height Reach
1.Sugar Ray Robinson 5-11 72.5"
2.Harry Greb 5-8 71.5"
3.Jake LaMotta 5-8 67"
4. Marcel Cerdan 5-8 69"
5. Tiger Flowers 5-10 76"
6. Stanley Ketchel 5-9 72"
7. Marvelous Marvin Hagler 5-9 1/2 75"
8. Carlos Monzon 5-11 1/2 76.5"
9. Gene Fullmer 5-8 69"
10. Carmen Basilio 5-6 1/2 67"
11. Emile Griffith 5-7 1/2 72"
12. Bernard Hopkins 5-11 1/2 75"
13. Charley Burley 5-9 ??
14. Mickey Walker 5-7 67.5"
15. Tony Zale 5-8 70"
16. Bob Fiztsimmons 5-11 3/4 75"
17. Nonpareil Jack Dempsey 5-8 ??
18. Tommy Ryan 5-7 1/2 ??
19. Mike Gibbons 5-9 72"
20. Rodrigo Valdez 5-9 1/2 ??
21. Bennie Briscoe ?? ??
22. Dick Tiger 5-8 71"
23. Rocky Graziano 5-7 1/4 70"
24. Bobo Olson 5-10 1/2 70"
25. Nino Benvenuti 5-11 75"
26. Joey Giardello 5-10 70"
27. Tommy Hearns 6-1 78"
28. James Toney 5-9 1/2 74.5"
29. Freddie Steele 5-9 1/4 72"
30. Jeff Smith 5-9 ??
31. Les Darcy 5-6 73.5"
32. ?? .
If you went with McCallum, 5-11 1/2 76"

Deepak

great list sherlock I will take all of the fighters on the list and add mike mcallum.

I will however put Roy Jones on the list because he scored one of his most signifigant victories at middleweight over an all time great in hopkins. So roy will be put at midddleweight also.

Hopkins is taller than 5'11 (6'0.5 or so) and I doubt Hagler was much over 5'8.

Just a thought

I think Joey Giardello, George Benton and Holly Mimms at least deserve a respectfull mention at this point.

I'd agree with Mike McCallum's inclusion, though Nunn and to alesser extend Kalumbay also have credentials.

Sometimes I think Jones' inclusion can skew these tourneys.

He often ends up making the last four despite his lack of history at the weight.

To exclude Jock McAvoy, Freddie Steele and Fred Apostili would make for a very incomplete 'tourney' as these 3 fighters would surely be among the Finalists..!

In fact if you look into Dan Hanely's all-time great contenders lists over at the CBZ you get a pretty darn good idea of WHO the REAL Champion's and contenders are!

Yours Jim.

Id have a hard time rating McAvoy and he sure wouldnt get into the finals. His biggest international fight was the drubbing he recieved at the hands of Thil. One fight which Thil didnt need to fake a foul in order to win.

Klompton I don't even look at the fouling (?), or not!, against Thil, I don't even look at the Thil fight at all...

I look at the Champs and contenders of the period and how they did against each other and ALL of these guys fought each other, with most of these fights going the distance... all but McAvoy's,
as usual McAvoy destroyed his "middleweight" opponents and as a result of that was "FORCED" to fight L-HW's and HW's... SHUT-OUT of the middleweight scene and took the GREAT J. H. Lewis the DISTANCE... "could these other 'middles' have done the same???"

Honest question... McAvoy WAS THEE MOST "FEARED" middleweight in the World back then.., and considering the Company that's saying something..!

Get Off your Anti - British and Euro fixation!!!

McAvoy ducked Gilroy, Glen thinks Gilroy was great, thus if McAvoy is slammed then Gilroy looks bad as well. I see...


It was all a big conspiracy that McAvoy and Gilroy didnt become world champs. You look at his record and I look at the actual film of him getting his ass handed to him by Thil. Why not have Thil in those ratings instead of McAvoy? He was European which crushes your puny argument against me and he fought and beat better competition. Hell why not rate Len Harvey ahead of McAvoy since he kicked his ass along with having a better record at MW than McAvoy against better competition. (I admit of course that having Harvey in there is as laughable as having McAvoy).

Your impressed with him going the distance against Lewis... WOW. Lewis has a 50% KO ratio, HALF HIS OPPONENTS WENT THE DISTANCE. There was four pounds difference between him and Lewis, he wasnt fighting King Kong. He was a light heavyweight fighting light heavyweights. What great middleweight did he EVER beat or come close to beating? You also never answered my question as to what was Bert Gilroys greatest victory. Which victory should have garnered him a shot at the worlds middleweight championship? Just curious...

klompton wrote:McAvoy ducked Gilroy, Glen thinks Gilroy was great, thus if McAvoy is slammed then Gilroy looks bad as well. I see...

Pot - Kettle

I see Klomp hasn't learned anything about manners since his days at the CBZ!

People that post here are entitled to their opinion and look for some healthy debate. Any chance you could do that without the snarky comments?

Gilroy was not afforded the opportunities that his British and European contemporaries were. Whether he was capable of doing anything with those opportunities - or McAvoy for that matter - is a another debate.

It is Jimglen's opinion (backed by facts - if you read his book on the subject) that Gilroy was left out in the cold. He may get a bee in his bonnet about Gilroy sometimes. He may even bang on about it a little, but that's his opinion and he's entitled to it.

Don't say you've never done the same about Greb.

Now. Wasn't this thread about a middleweight tournement!

WHO the hecks talking about Gilroy, Klompton?

I'm saying Jock McAvoy and Fred Apostili should be included in it,(this tourney)..! and you made a good point Marcel Thil would do well to be considered also!

Yours, Jim.

Ok, let me rephrase that: Marcel Thil should get into the tournament before McAvoy...