BoxRec

That is the title of an article from the June 2000 issue of Ring. I agree with the ten cited in the article, and that that is merely scratching at the surface.The Ten listed are: Robinson, Hagler, Greb, Fullmer, Burley, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Billy Conn, Bob Foster, Harold Johnson. All in favor? Those opposed?

Hi

I'd replace Fullmer with La Motta. Not sure about Johnson but the others i'd have to agree with.

Robinson---Jones by decision. I think Robinson is the greatest P4P, but he did not do the best against bigger guys!

Hagler---Again, Jones by decision.

Greb---Jones by decision.

Fullmer---Jones by knockout!

Burley---Jones by decision!

Ezzard Charles---Charles by knockout!

Archie Moore---Moore by knockout, or Jones by decision.

Billy Conn---Jones by decision.
Bob Foster---Foster by knockout, or Jones by decision...leaning toward Foster though!

Harold Johnson---Jones by decision!

Not Fullmer. I think Jones makes Fullmer look bad and probably knocks him out. The rest, most likely. It's too bad Jones avoided many of the best fighters during his carreer, because I don't think it is fair to judge him based on his recent knockout losses when he is well past prime. To me he was a great fighter, but it is hard to tell how good he really was, because you can't even say that he fought everyone he could.

Gene Tunney is another guy who would have beat Jones like a little baby, though, at Light Heavy, I'm surprised he wasn't on the list.

What about Moorer, at Light Heavy, what do you guys think? I think that would be a well matched fight.

-Dapa

I imagine Tarver would tell you he would always have kicked Jones' butt.

The reason I believe Fullmer would beat him is related to something ezzard said in a post ysterday. RJJ never had anything go wrong to speak of and when it did it turned out he was something less than a warrior. One thing known for sure is that Fullmer would go right to him, banging and rough-housing. And that if he' going to KO Fullmer he'll need to match the hook Robinson hit him with. Roy couldn't handle Fullmer, not his rough tatics, not his legal punches. Maybe he'd have a prayer with a 40year old Robinson but can anybody seriously picture the RJJ that fought Hopkins in the ring with the Robinson that beat LaMotta on Valentine's Day. Burley, Moore, Greb, they would all beat RJJ because they would not be intimidated by his assets, so they'd punch when jones punched.

>>>so they'd punch when jones punched.<<<

Maybe, but Jones would still be landing 3, or 4 to 1 and at middleweight Jones punched very, very hard!

Jones was not bigger then Robinson . . .Ray was 6 ft, longer reach (I assume this is a middleweight Jones Jr as well)

The rest of the list I pretty much agree. Barry how are you coming up with Jones Jr winning decisions against Charles Burley, Greb. and Hagler . . .who did Jones EVER face who comes close to that calibre of opponent.

dempseyfire wrote:Jones was not bigger then Robinson . . .Ray was 6 ft, longer reach (I assume this is a middleweight Jones Jr as well)

The rest of the list I pretty much agree. Barry how are you coming up with Jones Jr winning decisions against Charles Burley, Greb. and Hagler . . .who did Jones EVER face who comes close to that calibre of opponent.

Because barry is a RJJ nuthugger.

No offense barry, but there are lot's of people who favor their favorite fighter, like BB49 loving Marciano and the lot's of people who love the Klits.

Jones is one of my favorites, but I'm not some Jones minion that makes excuses for him, or tries to avoid a touchy issue such as him being knocked out cold, as most, if not all "nut-huggers" do about their favorites. Just because Jones has been one of my favorites that's not why I gave the results I did, my choices were not from the heart...if that was the case the I would probably have had Jones beating everyone on the list, with several knockouts, but I know that is just ridiculous and not at all rational to think.

Someone else's opinion is not more accurate, nor is it less accurate than mine...they're both based entirely on fantasy and hope as no one knows who would beat who...unless the fighters actually settle it in the ring. As to who Jones faced that comes close to Greb, Burley and Hagler...simple...both James Toney and Bernard Hopkins were fighters close to that kind of caliber. Of course all of the Jones-Haters will make excuses and give bogus responses such as Toney was overweight, or Hopkins was green, which all are bullshit and they are exactly what I said earlier...excuses. Fact is Jones had the talent and skill to beat any middleweight and any light heavyweight that ever lived and the same can be said for the biggest percentage of the fighters named on the list.

If anyone on the list would win, I would definitely have to say Hagler, Moore and Charles.

Charles was bigger and probably just as fast.

Moore was reasonably fast and the KO king if the man could floor Marciano then he should be able to KO RJJ.

Hagler was a man who couldn't be KO'd and he didn't have much of a weakness. He could fight RJJ how he wanted to and knock him out.

barry wrote:As to who Jones faced that comes close to Greb, Burley and Hagler...simple...both James Toney and Bernard Hopkins were fighters close to that kind of caliber.

Say what? Maybe Hopkins, but that's a big maybe. Hopkins has done everything he can, but the fight game really isn't at the same level as it was even in Hagler's day. Toney is not even close to being in this league, though.

-Dapa

I agree with most of Barry's assesments. Roy Jones is also one of my favorite fighters but I dont rate him high because i like him, i rate him high because hes proven himself. Grimm, I obvisely favor marciano, and others like jones, de la hoya, but i dont say their great or defend their arguements because i like them, its because i think i have legitimate reasons for why they would beat that fighter. I am not a inpcompedent fan, i back my theories with reasons.

Jones vs Burley- Jones by decision

Jones vs Foster- this would be interesting considering Fosters height and reach. If foster tagged jones, jones would be out. but i doubt it. jones speed, and skills are too much. JONES BY DECISION.

Archie Moore vs Jones- MOORE BY KNOCKOUT. archies crab style would give jones fits and archies very smart and defensive. archie also had loads of power ofr a light-H and was a big light-H and i think he would catch roy in mid rounds and finish him off soon after.

Conn vs Jones- Jones by CLOSE DECISION. conn was one of the most skillful boxers and great at countering but he would have to beat jones at his own game and i think jones has the edge with the speed and also possessed power.

Jones vs Fullmer- Jones by TKO. Jones would win by the ref stopping the fight with fullmer vut up badly and out on his feet. fullmers too tough to be knocked out. fuller though didnt posess enough skills to go with roy, and roy would box circles around him with speed and counter shots. and fullmers physical tactics wont work. he will have trouble pushing a bigger jones around.

Hagler vs Jones- Jones by close decision. Jones style is the best too use aganst hagler. Because u cant slug it out with hagler. Jones will use speed and hard combos and counterpunching to frustrate hagler. hagler will land some hard blows down the stretch but i think jones will outbox him and stay out of danger. jones has a lot more power than leonard too. JONES BY CLOSE DECISION.

Robinson vs Jones- at middleweight this is a superfight. Robinson was a small middleweight but was a tough middleweight the night he dethroned la motta. Robinson would be giving up size and strentgh but not skill, speed and power. Robinson also has proven heart and i casn ssee him matching jones in boxing and speed and i dont kno how roy will react to that. Robinson should try to get a toe to toe slug out. jones has power too, but id give robinson the edge. I think this could go either way at middelweight. JONES OR ROBINSON BY DECISION. id lean toward robinson.

Somebody else mentioned that Tunney at Lt heavy should definitely be on the list--which I agree is a no-brainer. Another ommission that shocks me is Michael Spinks, also Dwight Qawi (or Braxton, at 175) would have a better chance than most of the other short slugger types. Then there's Carlos Monzon--nobody's mentioned him as a possibility(at 160, anyway)? Oh, and whatabout Bob Fitzsimmons? Tough to make a decision about someone with little or no film footage in existence, but still.

I'd agree that Fullmer's probably the least likely to pull it off from this list.

Here's one for consideration: Maxie Rosenbloom--no power at all, but very slick.

Burley beats RJJ because of his defense, right handed body punching and his "jab" From what I've read and the tape I've seen, hetook a stance that was turned as far to the right as possible, and still see your opponent, and he carried his left low, @waist level. This essentially takes your opponent's right hand out of the match, and you damn near had to ride a bike to get far enough around to land a left hook, and to reach with the jab was to invite counters His own "jab" was a ramrod of a thing; almost a straight armed uppercut rising from the hip. RJJ had tendency to keep his chin high in the air and his hands at his hips ; pair all that with his proclivity for leaping forward and you can probably begin to see the problems Jones would face. Conn would carry the fight to RJJ just as he did to Louis and nearly everybody else he fought. I think that there may very well be a misperception regarding Conn's punching power, stemming from the expectations that he'd 'run' from Louis, and bcause he had only 14 KOs in 76 fights. He turned pro at 17 w/o any amateur fights at all and in his first 18 months suffered 7 of 12 career losses, while scoring 2 KOs. The next year he was 18-0 with3KO; his last fight that year was with his pal Zivic and from then on he never had a soft match-up; his record is wall to wall with Krieger, Apostoli, Yarosz, and Honeyboy Jones. He won the LHW title in the first of 6 fights at that weight , then moved up to heavy weight. He ahd 8 of his KOs after winning the LHW title. To me, it is obvious that he could hit (he had Louis goofy in the 12th) and that he learned his trade at a most demanding facility; while learning as he went those middleweights were to tough to KO. I bet he'd have ko'd twenty in a row if he had fought Jorge Vaca, Young Dick Tiger and the "iron-chinned" Merqui Sosa. He'd box circles around RJJ, slap him around then KO him in 9 or 10.

None of those guys had the reflexes and combination of skills that Roy had. I think though, that many of them knew how to fight better than Roy because they didn't always have the best reflexes in the ring so they learned how to box and did so more because they had to do so. They couldn't just go out and dominate the way Roy did. With that said, I still think Roy would beat nearly every guy on that list. Ezzard Charles would probably knock RJJ out and possibly Archie Moore. Sugar Ray Robinson would be an interesting match up. I those 2 would split 50/50 if they fought 10 times. Other than that I don't see any of the other beat Roy. Maybe Hagler because he was fuckin' awesome. I don't think Roy would hurt him even though Roy had brutal power at middleweight. I think Hagler would just keep coming and coming and fight a smart fight, then again he may try to fight a fight like he did against Ray Leonard. In that case Roy would beat him.

I hate all this stupid what if shit. They guys aren't going to ever fight so why do so many of you get so upset over what ifs?

tiredoldngrey wrote:That is the title of an article from the June 2000 issue of Ring. I agree with the ten cited in the article, and that that is merely scratching at the surface.The Ten listed are: Robinson, Hagler, Greb, Fullmer, Burley, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Billy Conn, Bob Foster, Harold Johnson. All in favor? Those opposed?

Roy Jones would have been competitive against ALL those guys...I could see him going 6-4 against that field...The best match up might be Bob Foster...now that's a fight I'd like to see...If Foster hits him, it's OVER...could Roy's defensive skills have won for him? Not sure about that...I think Foster would beat most of the others, though, except for Moore & Charles...which would be 50/50...too tough to pick...

zslayton wrote:
I hate all this stupid what if shit. They guys aren't going to ever fight so why do so many of you get so upset over what ifs?

You must not hate it that much...seeing as how you posted something ...and there are some stupid posts on some threads here...stupidity can be somewhat upsetting...but I really doubt if anyone's banging their head off the wall over it...if you know what I mean...

Greb was at least as fast as Jones and he proved it by outspeeding other great and fast fighters, not by beating bums. Greb took a better shot. He was more active. He had better stamina. More experience against a wider range of foes. Was the same size (when Jones wasnt on steroids), etc etc. Greb would beat Jones and I dont think it would even be a contest. Jones never had to face adversity and when he finally did he couldnt fall back on good skills or a solid jaw. Both failed him. As for Jones landing 3 or 4 punches to one for ever shot Greb threw thats absolutely ridiculous. Greb is known as one of the fastest most active fighters in history and was extremely hard to hit. Like I stated before, he got this reputation fighting the best not has-beens and never weres. And Toney cant even hope to be compared to Greb. Not when you lose to non-descript fighters like Drake Thadzi and Dave Tiberi (yeah, he lost that one). The only thing thats kept Toneys career afloat is careful matchmaking and steroids which he was taking at least as far back as his fight with Adolpho Washington. Guys like Toney and Jones who lay back and hope to counterpunch their way to victory are playing a waiting game against Greb hoping to win a points decision. How many GREAT fighters beat Greb on points in his prime, much less before it, or past it when he was blind in one eye? Of the guys who did beat Greb could Jones even beat them? Tunney, Loughran, Norfolk, Flowers? The only one I'd favor Jones over would be Flowers because of his shaky chin but even that fight wouldnt be a lock for Jones. Ill even go one better. Most people think Jones best weight was 168. Fine. Let Jones come in at 168 and Greb come in at 163 and Greb would beat Jones by decision as easily as he did Tunney in their first bout. Id bet my house, my car, and my newborn son it... I'd win too.

zslayton wrote:None of those guys had the reflexes and combination of skills that Roy had. I think though, that many of them knew how to fight better than Roy because they didn't always have the best reflexes in the ring so they learned how to box and did so more because they had to do so. They couldn't just go out and dominate the way Roy did. With that said, I still think Roy would beat nearly every guy on that list. Ezzard Charles would probably knock RJJ out and possibly Archie Moore. Sugar Ray Robinson would be an interesting match up. I those 2 would split 50/50 if they fought 10 times. Other than that I don't see any of the other beat Roy. Maybe Hagler because he was fuckin' awesome. I don't think Roy would hurt him even though Roy had brutal power at middleweight. I think Hagler would just keep coming and coming and fight a smart fight, then again he may try to fight a fight like he did against Ray Leonard. In that case Roy would beat him.

I hate all this stupid what if shit. They guys aren't going to ever fight so why do so many of you get so upset over what ifs?

It's just fantasy matchups.

But I think RJJ is great definitely all time.

I just don't see him beating some of those names.

Definitely not Robinson,Hagler or Moore.


But what do you guys think he would've done against Mike Spinks?

GRIMM I think a fight with spinks would have been grand. I like his chances against anyone though.

About Greb, I don't think there has ever been a fighter with the combination of reflexes and skills that RJJ had (notice I said had). The reason he wasn't tested is because he was so much more advanced from a physical standpoint than anyone he faced. He hardly lost a round in his career until his first fight with Montel Griffin, and didn't seem to lose to many more until his first fight with Tarver. Everyone is jumping up and claiming that James Toney and Bernard Hopkins are greats because of the things they accomplished, but RJJ beat both of them easily. Had RJJ stayed at middleweight Bernard Hopkins would have been nothing more than a contender and fringe belt holder.

I see so many people on this board that say "RJJ was never tested and when he was tested he got beat." That is total bullshit. Then they will say he doesn't deserve a place among the all time greats because he didn't beat anyone, but he beat the same caliber fighter that Bernard Hopkins beat, yet people are jumping on the Hopkins band wagon. I am not saying Hopkins isn't an all-time great because I think he is, but he couldn't touch RJJ at his peak, not any version of Hopkins could have beaten RJJ at his peak.

So, to compare RJJ to Greb, IMO, is not even close. Like I said earlier, I think RJJ beats 6 or 7 of the guys all night long, and would probably split with the Charles, the Mongoose, and Ray Robinson.

We are talking about a guy with superhuman reflexes that make a cat look slow, and a kind of power that was not heavy, but more of a lightning type of thing. You don't see it coming, just like lightning, then it strikes and destroys whatever it hits. That is why he went so long with out being tested.

zslayton wrote:So, to compare RJJ to Greb...

Actually I dont compare them, thats why Greb would beat Jones easily. The gulf in what they could and did accomplish is miles apart.

zslayton wrote:That is why he went so long with out being tested.

Yeah, along with very VERY selective matchmaking and steroids...

These were from eastside boxing.

BOB FOSTER - The most intimidating light heavyweight of our time. I honestly think Bob would come into this bout with a strong dislike for Jones. You don''t trash talk Bob Foster and we know how Bob gets when he's angry. Remember Vincente Rondon? That's not saying that Roy is anything like Rondon, but Jones would be facing a man who was jabbing on even terms with Muhammad Ali !!! Roy's speed would give Foster trouble early on but Roy would have trouble getting past Bob's jab. I think once Roy tasted Foster's power he'd be on his bicycle for the rest of the evening. This could be like Foster's bout with Ray Anderson. Foster by easy decision or by kayo, anytime.

MICHAEL SPINKS - How can a fighter do so much wrong and yet never lose a fight at 175 pounds? The "Spinks Jinx" is how. Roy would respect Michael's power but Spinks looks so easy to hit that Roy would try to go after him. Jones would land his share of shots, but Mike's twisting, turning style would keep him from putting too many together. When there is a lull in the action Spinks would trade jabs with Jones on a fairly even basis. As the bout wears on past the tenth round Roy is becoming frustrated by Mike's style. Although ahead on points Jones in his frustration gets careless and the "Spinks Jinx" takes him out. Spinks by a late round come from behind knockout.

Jones did have great refelxes, was way ahead of the field and deserves a mention in the same breath as these fighters but some of the comments are way over the top. Jones is hyped to the nth degree. Yes he'd be competitive but to think he can beat Greb, go 50-50 with Charles is nonsense.

Now Jones's refleces have dulled we are seeing what his chin is made of, how he responds to adversity, how he handles being in a losing position. Seriously, Charles was a REAL Heavyweight champion. He went 15 with Marciano can you imagine Jones doing that? Can you imagine Greb being out hussled by Johnson or KO'd by Tarver? I don't think so...

My point is simply that Jones would have his dominant rounds in these fights but so would his oppponents. We've seen Hagler take his shots and come back to win. We've seen Charles beat Moore, Marshall, Burley, Bivins, Maxim, the list goes on. It's a who's who of boxing for goodness sake.

When Jones had Greb, Charles, Moore, hagler, monzon under pressure they'd all grit their teeth and come back at him. We all knwo this 100% but when the tables turned Jones would not have been able to respond.

What could Greb really do to Jones? He didn't have the power to knock him out. Greb was fast, but not nearly as fast as Jones...Greb was unothodox, but no where near what Jones was, so without the punch, what could Greb actually do...out box Jones....I doubt it very, very seriously because he sure as hell would not be landing the punches on Jones that he did on the fighters of his time! Greb is without a doubt one of the greatest ever, but he didn't have the tools to beat Jones!