BoxRec

Boxing 98 put Evander in with Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Sonny Liston, Ali, Frazier and Holmes. They have him going 6-4 with ,I think, 3KOs. His tkos come against Tunney, Liston, and the 70s version of Foreman. He loses to Louis by ko, Ali on points, Holmes on sd, and by sd to Frazier. Any body see it differently?

I cannot see him koing Liston and Foreman. I see them koing him early. Inside 3 by liston and inside 5 by Foreman. The rest I agree. YOu didnt put MArcianos perceived result, but personally I see Rocky stopping Holyfield in 8.

Liston is one of the most underestimated boxers and h ewould have walked throw Holy. Fatso Bowe stopped Holy, so I see no reason why Liston wouldnt do that a lot faster. Liston his hard, had a reach like Lewis and he hit a lot harder, while not havign the glass chin and being gun shy like Lewis. Holy would have been an easy fight for him.

tiredoldngrey wrote:Boxing 98 put Evander in with Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Sonny Liston, Ali, Frazier and Holmes. They have him going 6-4 with ,I think, 3KOs. His tkos come against Tunney, Liston, and the 70s version of Foreman. He loses to Louis by ko, Ali on points, Holmes on sd, and by sd to Frazier. Any body see it differently?

I liked Holyfield...still do...but I sure don't see him beating a prime Liston or Tunney or Foreman...Foreman fought him as an old man and held his own...lost a 12 round decision...surely, he'd have a better chance as a 24-25 year old in the '70's...don't you think? If Big George hit him, he'd drop him...Same with Liston, who was a more technically skilled boxer, better puncher, superior jabber (and a powerful jab), much longer reach would spell problems for Holyfield...I don't think Riddick Bowe could have beaten Sonny, do you? ...Liston (1960-63) was someone anyone should beware of...if Dempsey (even though past his prime) couldn't handle Tunney, Holyfield would have his hands full too...I don't see Holyfield at 6-4...more like 1-9...that's some pretty fierce competition there...I also don't think any heavyweight in history would go undefeated against those guys...only the elite would have winning records against that field...to say that Holyfield would go 6-4...no way...that would involve 4 or 5 upsets...

Jab, do you fail to realize Holyfield had Hepatitis when he fought Bowe the third time? He clearly had noticeable Jaundice... I can't believe they allowed him to fight.

Tantum wrote:Jab, do you fail to realize Holyfield had Hepatitis when he fought Bowe the third time? He clearly had noticeable Jaundice... I can't believe they allowed him to fight.

What was his excuse for the first fight?

He didn't get knocked out in the first fight. He lost by decision.

No offense, but Holyfield always has some excuse mate. He had a heart problem in the Moorer fight, a broken left hand in the Byrd fight, hepatitis in the third Bowe fight etc. The man just never loses outright. There is always something else with him.

Did he ever lose a fight and just say he lost to the better man? In the Lewis rematch he said he won but the judges stole it from him. He also said he won the first. He said Don King made the judges vote agaisnt him when he lost to Ruiz etc. And with Larry Donald it was just something wrong with his left hand and he couldnt throw the left hook like he did in training.

Dont get me wrong, I like the guy. He has tons of heart and a fighting spirit not seen since the good old days. But he also has a million excuses.
If it is not one thing then it is another. The excises just never end. He is like Byrd: he never loses, just something else conspires to make him lose.

And pray, if he had hepatitis, why did he fight? In his planned fight against Akinwande he pulled out because Akinwande had hepatitis and was afraid he will get infected. I guess there was no way he could infect Bowe? IF he did have it then he was hypocrit to pull out of the Akinwande fight, as well as criminally irresponsible ti fight Bowe and risk infecting him.

..i don't know about the other fights and i don't know what his medical problem was in the third bowe fight...but he was a very sick man and looked ready to collapse in his corner...and if i had been in that corner i wouldn't have let him come out for the round.....so...he staggers off his stool and puts bowe down and nearly out.

...i have no other comment on how he would do against the others mentioned. holy is one of the most difficult heavyweights to rate....could look good, great and mediocre...sometimes all in the same fight.

Tantum wrote:He didn't get knocked out in the first fight. He lost by decision.

Yeah, but he still lost...which means he lost 2 out of 3 to Bowe...not something most 'top 10' fighters do...lose 2 out of 3 to a guy who really was only in shape for their 1st fight...no doubt he had some sort of stamina problem in the 3rd fight...Hepatitis sounds good...but losing 2 out of 3 to Bowe doesn't make him look like the kind of guy who is going to go 6-4 against the fighters mentioned at the start of this thread...all of whom were better (and far more dedicated) than Bowe...

I bet Bowe would blast the hell out of atleast a few of the fighters on that list.

Tantum wrote:I bet Bowe would blast the hell out of atleast a few of the fighters on that list.

which ones...and which Bowe...he was not always in peak condition as I'm sure you'll remember...

I definitely think he wins against Frazier,Marciano, Foreman and Dempsey because the wouldn't be trying to outbox him and win on points, they would be trying to knock him out and Holyfield is unable to knock out. Forget Bowe 3 that doesn't even count, he was sick as mentioned before.

I think Jack Johnson definitely wins because he's faster and probably just as strong with unmatchable boxing skills.

Joe Louis is well..............Joe Louis.

Holmes would be an interesting matchup he had a hard time with an old Holmes he probably would've lost to a young one.

I think he would have a great match with Tunney that would be very close I say draw on this one.

Liston had a long jab good power and good boxing skills, I pick liston in this one.

I think Ali's fight would go something like the one with Holmes.

Grimm wrote:I definitely think he wins against Frazier,Marciano, Foreman and Dempsey because the wouldn't be trying to outbox him and win on points, they would be trying to knock him out and Holyfield is unable to knock out.

Most of the guys he fought couldn't knock him out...but...who did he fight that was anything like a Frazier, a Marciano, a Dempsey??? And he did fight a 42 year old Foreman...and won a decision. But young George was a little better than old George...all 4 of those guys could KO Holyfield if they land flush...and I don't think he would have held the title very long if he had to face those guys in his 1st 4 defenses...as a matter of fact, it was his 4th defense when he lost to Bowe the 1st time...imagine that!

Dempsey with non-tampered 10oz gloves wouldn't stand a chance against almost any champ since Joe Louis.

tiredoldngrey wrote:Boxing 98 put Evander in with Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Sonny Liston, Ali, Frazier and Holmes. They have him going 6-4 with ,I think, 3KOs. His tkos come against Tunney, Liston, and the 70s version of Foreman. He loses to Louis by ko, Ali on points, Holmes on sd, and by sd to Frazier. Any body see it differently?

Johnson - No idea.
Dempsey - Holyfield TKO5
Tunney - Holyfield Pts
Louis - Louis TKO13
Marciano - Holyfield Pts
Liston - Liston TKO6
Ali - Holyfield Pts
Frazier - Holyfield pts (unsure on the one)
Holmes - Holmes UD
Foreman - Foreman TKO7

Holyfield would have been shut out by a prime holmes. u saw how much trouble a 44 YEAR OLD holmes gave him???? A prime holmes would have boxed circles for the entire 12 rounds over hoylfield. plus i feel one of holmes biggest tools is heart. he had a lot of heart and could match holyfield in that category.

I think a young geroge foreman would have stopped hoylfield early because he did get some hard punches on holyfield in holyfields prime and a young george was faster and hit harder. but if he didnt stop him early, holyfield had a slim chance ot win on points but holyfield wasnt a typical boxer. and foreman had trouble with boxers.

liston and hoylfield. I can see liston winning by knockout but holyfiels heart gives him a chance to survive while liston doesnt have much heart. although i feel liston could have outpointed him like he did eddie machen plus liston had a hard jab.

Joe Louis knocks out evander hoylfield.
I think Rocky Marciano stopps evander very late and his blows to holyfield wear down holyfield and rocky stops him. and marciano was tough in the championship rounds.
I think Jack Dempsey might stop holyfield late as well or possibly win a close points decision.

jOE frazier knocks out holyfield with that left hook. fraziewrs left hook is a lot worse than bowes.

Jack Johnson and holyfield. I hope jonhson becomes more agressive and if he does he will win handily on points/.

Holyfield was a great HW but really I don't see him beating any of the guys on this list, save MAYBE Dempsey in a 12 round fight (in a 15 rounder Jack wears him down).

Johnson is too crafty and slick, ditto with Tunney. Foreman would be twice the fighter who gave Evander a real tough fight in 92 and overwhelm Holyfield with his jab and uppercuts. Frazier would outwork him and wear him out (you saw what Cooper did to Evander? . .he was a poor poor man's Joe Frazier) He would give Ali a very close fight but I see Ali having the better stamina to win a close decision (this is a prime Ali, not the mid 70s version who tired) Liston would basically match him strength for strength and then probably TKO him in the middle rounds.

power wrote

Johnson - No idea.
Dempsey - Holyfield TKO5
Tunney - Holyfield Pts
Louis - Louis TKO13
Marciano - Holyfield Pts
Liston - Liston TKO6
Ali - Holyfield Pts
Frazier - Holyfield pts (unsure on the one)
Holmes - Holmes UD
Foreman - Foreman TKO7

WHat could possibly make u think holyfield would knockout dempsey in 5 rounds????? please give me some reasons. and If the fight went the distance with marciano, marciano would win on points. cause holyfield has to beat marciano at his own game (being physical) and marciano is too tough ,agressive and has a lot more power in his punches. and frazier would probably KO holyfield and if not frazier would easily win on points. power u overate holyfield. no way in hell he would beat dempsey marciano and frazier.
NOW HOLD ON HOLD ON. WAIT WAIT WHATS THAT I SEE. NO I THINK I NEED SOME GLASSES. U HAVE HOLYFIELD OUTPOINTING MUHAMMAD ALI???? HAHAHAHAHAHAH U GOT ME POWER. THAT WAS A GOOD ONE. I THOUGHT ALL UR PREDICTIONS WERE TRUE UNTIL I SAW THE ALI ONE. THAT WAS A VERY GOOD JK

..the more i study jack johnson's films and i've been doing it for decades..the more i am reminded of akinwande..or whatever the hell his name is. you know...the one mills lane disqiualified for holding.

Jaclem wrote:..the more i study jack johnson's films and i've been doing it for decades..the more i am reminded of akinwande..or whatever the hell his name is. you know...the one mills lane disqiualified for holding.

Then you've probably seen the film where Johnson gets butted about 6 or 7 times in a row in rapid succession...I forget who the opponent was...you can see the ref saying something...and then the butts continue...what do you think Mills Lane would have done about that?...a high percentage of those real old fights are full of fouls...more tolerated back then, I guess

Also, what do you think Mills Lane would have done about Ali's holding in the 2nd Frazier fight? And that was just 30 years ago...

the headbutter was fireman jim flynn

..ah yes..in like flynn..that is flynn's head in johnson's face. ..one of the craziest fights i've ever seen. i think the referee was afraid flynn was going to headbutt HIM....and johnson just kept sticking that rapid fire jab in flynn's face.

..the second frazier/ali fight....i too wonder how many times mills would have pulled ali's hand away from the back of frazier's neck before he started taking rounds away. i like to think it wouldn't have been long. there's been a lot of ali footage on expn classic lately...and i've been studying some of it and it's more apparent than it was after just a few viewings how often ali got away witht his in almost all of his fights. if he had tried this with marciano he'd have had a new career as a boy soprano.

Jaclem wrote: if he had tried this with marciano he'd have had a new career as a boy soprano.

Ouch...I almost double over thinking about it...

Jaclem wrote: .. there's been a lot of ali footage on expn classic lately...and i've been studying some of it and it's more apparent than it was after just a few viewings how often ali got away witht his in almost all of his fights.

After the 'exile', it was one of his main tools...after he slowed down, he took his edges where he could...I still remember the pre-exile fights, some of which had very little clinching/holding...youth, speed, and stamina can do wonders...

sweet scientist.....yeah...they're almost two different fighters, aren't they.....pre and post....the younger one never stayed inside long enough to do any head grabbing.....the older spent much much more. i've always wondered what we would have seen had ali not been banned.....i think those would have been his peak years..with some factors of each time period. that's almost a fantasy match in itself.