BoxRec

How good was Larry Holmes? His record and championship reign speaks for itself, but when you watch the guy fight -- how good was he really?

Seeing a guy like Berbick give him trouble just really makes me wonder. Seeing an aged Norton giving him a life and death fight makes me wonder.

Holmes had a very peculiar style. He did a lot of things wrong, moreso, imo, than a guy like Ali. There is kind of a bizarre mockery of Ali in the way that Holmes fights that just throws me for a loop when I try to think about his style. And I think when George Foreman made his return he really took a lot out of Holmes' playbook. The way Holmes would pace himself, especially, just going slow and easy then suddenly unleash measured agression.

At the end of the day, I have a hard time picking Holmes over other great heavyweights. What great heavyweights do you think Holmes would beat?

I love Holmes, btw, not trying to dog him.

-Dapa

As I said before, Holmes threw a right hand like a girl. He had a good jab, but tried to throw it too hard many times....he really could not double jab because of this. He had a nice short right upper cut, he used well. Not a big hooker. Larry had a chin of iron and was always in good shape. You don't get knocked down by Ernie Shavers, and get off the deck to win, if you don't have a chin and re-cooperative powers. Larry beat the best of his time, and you have to give him that. He was the champ, until they stole his title against Spinks. They did not want Larry to break a Marciano's record. He was doomed to lose unless he knocked Spinks out.

i thought spinks won the first FIGHT ringsider by a close decision. I THOUGHT HOLMES WON THE REMATCH THOUGH. and holmes got that far by beating on stiffs like scott le deux, leroy jones, lorenzo zanon, scott frank????? and a lot of other fighters that wouldnt have qualified for joe louis bum of the month tour.

HOLMES WAS A TOP 10 HEAVYWEIGHT DEFINTELY. I RATE HIM # 8 AND NOT HIGHER MAINLY BASED ON HIS LEVEL OF COMPETETION AND DUE TO THE FACT HE DID HAVE A LOT OF TROUBLE IN SOME OF HIS DEFENSES AND NEARLY LOST HIS TITLE A # OF TIMES. holmes had one of the best jabs ever, BUT HIS BEST ASSET WAS HIS HEART . HE HAD A LOT OF HEART. HE WAS IN TROUBLE IN MANY BOUTS YET CAME BACK TO WIN WITH HIS HEART. HE ALSO CLIMBED OFF THE FLOOR AFTER A VICIOUS RIGHT BY SHAVERS SHOWING HE HAS A CHIN. HOLMES WAS VERY SMART AND COULD BEAT U OVER 15 ROUNDS ALONE ON HIS JAB. HE WAS ALSO BIG AND HAD PRETTY GOOD STAMINA.

HE DID HAVE A LOT OF TROUBLE AGAINST NORTON (I THOUGHT IT WAS A DRAW) IN HIS PRIME AND THAT WAS PROBABLY HOLMES' BEST WIN. HE THEN BEAT UP A LOT OF BUMS BUT ALSO SOME DECENT FIGHTERS LIKE WEAVER, AND BONECRUSHER AND COONEY. HIS FIGHT WITH COONEY WAS OVERATED, COONEY HADNT BEATEN ANYONE AND COONEY STILL STOOD IN THEIR AND GAVE HOLMES SOME TROUBLE.
U WONDER HOW HOLMES WOULD DO AGAINST AN ALL TIME GREAT?? HE NEVER FACED ONE IN HIS PRIME. THE ONLY ONE HE DID, HE WAS KNOCKED OUT WHEN HE WAS 42 BY TYSON. HOLMES LEVEL OF COMPETETION WAS WEAK AND GUYS LIKE NORTON, SNIPES, SHAVERS, AND WITHERSPOON NEARLY BEAT HIM.

WITHERSPOON I THOUGHT WON . AND HOLMES WAS STILL IN HIS PRIME. I THINK HOLMES IS A TOP 10 HEAVYWEIGHT BUT NOT TOP 5.

Holmes had great skills, jab, ring generalship, defence, but his main thing was his fighting heart as mentioned above and his superb conditioning. He could simply outlast opponents and make them eat his jab all night.

Norton was a top fighter once he got through the first few rounds and he always gave boxers trouble. I think Cooney looks poor now in retrosepct because he mentally fell apart after losing to Holmes, but he was a very dangerous contender in his prime.

If you have to say anything against the man then he never unified the title. He tried to beat the record by fighting fat heavys like Bey and then a fat light heavy. Spinks' movement was too much for him. He was stripped of his WBC belt and then allowed the IBF into boxing by becoming their champion so he could pick his opponents and beat that 49-0 record. he was older then though and probably felt he had earned the right to hand pick his victims (not sure if I agree with that kind of thing, but there you go).

I think Larry would have had problems with quicker mobile fighters with solid defensive skills (Tunney, Charles Walcott). I think he loses to Ali and Louis. It's hard to judge Johnson on film evidence but if I had to pick I'd go with Jack. I think Larry versus Liston, Foreman and Frazier would be dream matchups and I'd give him the edge in all of them (but only just). I pick him to win more often than not against everyone else.

back in the mid-1980s The Ring did an article matching him against the greats. They picked him over everyone except Ali...

I consider Holmes a great fighter, although I admit there were others who were more interesting to watch. Holmes had a systematic way of beating people. It was not by the annihilations a Foreman or a Tyson used to inflict. Holmes beat people instead with sound boxer/puncher skills, his fights, while certainly not as impressive, being a little like the way Mayweather just beat Gatti -- minus the great foot work.

In regard to Holmes running up his record against bums -- a point I once made myself in another thread in pointing out that the lack of talent during his reign was never quite able to vindicate him as a great champion -- it could be argued that even Ali fought some rather dubious challengers to his titles ... Richard Dunn, Jean-Pierre Coupman, Brian London, Karl Mildenberger, Chuck Wepner, Alfredo Evangelista (who also fight Holmes).

kingpawn wrote:
In regard to Holmes running up his record against bums -- a point I once made myself in another thread in pointing out that the lack of talent during his reign was never quite able to vindicate him as a great champion -- it could be argued that even Ali fought some rather dubious challengers to his titles ... Richard Dunn, Jean-Pierre Coupman, Brian London, Karl Mildenberger, Chuck Wepner, Alfredo Evangelista (who also fight Holmes).

Karl Mildenberger doesn't belong with the others you mention...he was not a 'dubious' challenger like the others...compare his record and highest ranking when active to the others and you'll see he was a cut above the others...he also gave a prime (1966) Ali a tough time for about 7 or 8 rounds...not many could make that statement...

Sweet Scientist ... regarding Mildenberger, I'll give you that he was a little above Dunn, Coupman and others I mentioned. I had read of the chorus of boos heaped on he and Gerhart Zech when they basically staged a nonfight for the Euro title. And I know Oscar Bonavena practically ran right through him, though he didn't knock him out.

However, going back through Mildenberger's record, I see he owns a victory over Eddie Machen and drew with Zora Folley. Not too bad. The rest of his resume includes a lot of names with good records, but hardly a one that most people (including myself) have ever heard of. Perhaps that's because Mildenberger never ventured outside of Germany, except for in a couple of his last fights.

At any rate, your point is well taken.

ringsider wrote: They did not want Larry to break a Marciano's record. He was doomed to lose unless he knocked Spinks out.

I don't believe that...sounds like some kind of conspiracy or something...nobody was out to get Larry...and...if somebody would break Marciano's 'record' and wind up 50-0...and then lose their next fight and wind up 50-1...they suddenly lost the 'record' didn't they? They are no longer undefeated...and that is Marciano's biggest claim to fame, is it not?

yees i agree sweet scientist. definetely his biggest accomplishment, because he is the ONLY undefeated heavyweight champion of all time, and it doesnt look like the records gonna be broken any time soon.

It was not a conspiracy. I think since rocky was loved by a lot of people and holmes wasnt a big media guy, a lot of the experts and ring historians were probably hoping holmes wouldnt break it. but it didnt have to do with the scoring. i thought the 1st spinks fight was close enough to go either way.

and even if holmes did tie him at 49-0, who will holmes fight next??? the press would put a lot of pressure on him to fight the best man out their rather than rack up a 50th win over a wimpy halstead. and holmes was aging so he could have very well lossed his next match. DID ANYONE THINK SPINKS WON THE FIRST FIGHT???

and i think if holmes had broken the record he possibly would have kept fighting and eventually lost, but would have got recognition for surpassing rockys 49 wins without a defeat.


holmes also lost a lot of respect when he made that comment about how marciano couldnt hold his jock strap. i must admit i have read his book and studied and watched his fights but i did lose a little respect from that comment. i feel if holmes had true class liek a champion, he wouldnt be putting down another great legend like himself, and taking out his anger on a dead man. holmes did apologize, but only because he had too in order to redeem his image. if any other champ said that, i would have lost a bit of respect for them too. i feel holmes was on a different level than most fighters and belongs in the top ten heavyweight legends and he should have some class and respect along with his skill.

There's no doubt that Holmes was quite bitter about his lack of acclaim in the media but he didn't have the personality that came across that well. Nearly all boxing experts thought he was a great.

I have to say that I thought Spinks won the first fight. It was a huge upset. I've only seen the second fight on highlights so I can't really judge.

Holmes did not have to belittle Marciano. A record is all fine and dandy but it doesn't mean anything once you duck between the ropes. It was Holmes who built up Rocky by targeting the record. If Rocky had been alive I'm sure he would have been gracious about Holmes and not mentioned that Larry wasn't even undisputed champion.

I always thought Norton won that fight with Holmes. He was just unlucky when it came to judges. Holmes probably should have got the decision in the first fight with Spinks, but Mike was a blown-up light heavyweight and should've never lasted the distance. Holmes can't be blamed for fighting a lot of class B heavies. He did show poorly against Witherspoon and Snipes, though, and likely should have taken a fight with Coetzee.

Cap

Holmes should have fought Dokes too,a s well as Pink Thomas.

I always thought a well conditioned and motivated Witherspoon could have been a very good fighter.

Cap wrote:I always thought Norton won that fight with Holmes. He was just unlucky when it came to judges. Holmes probably should have got the decision in the first fight with Spinks, but Mike was a blown-up light heavyweight and should've never lasted the distance. Holmes can't be blamed for fighting a lot of class B heavies. He did show poorly against Witherspoon and Snipes, though, and likely should have taken a fight with Coetzee.

Cap

I sat ringside at the Snipes fight, other than the surprise 7th round knockdown, I don't consider it a 'poor showing'...That's why Larry never got recognition...he had all those 'poor showings' that really weren't 'poor showings'...He would have beaten Coetzee and Greg Page...others alway say he ducked Greg Page...Page lost to Berbick on the undercard of the Cooney fight...all he had to do was win and he would have fought Larry next...Coetzee lost to John Tate, who lost to Weaver...who fought Larry...wasn't it something like that why he didn't fight Coetzee? I was never impressed with Coetzee anyway...Greg Page might have been a good fight...for a while...

Holmes didn't duck Dokes, Thomas, Page etc.

Everytime one of them was in line to fight Holmes, they lost.

He won a tough classic against Norton clearly in my opinion.

All time great HW, def. top 8 all time.

Larry Holmes is easily in the top 3 of all time. The fact he had "trouble" with so-called lesser fighters was because he decided to mix it up and risk it when he could have easily danced around them and won every round.

He beat Norton By 3 or 4 clear rounds, it was a good fight, but clear to score.

He beat Ali like a whipped dog, and taught him a lesson in manners he'd never forget. Then again, plenty of people had done that to Ali, just never got the decision.

Renaldo Snipes, Cooney, and shavers where dangerous live opponents, far better than Richard Dunn, Michael Grant, Tony Galento, Danny Williams, Fat Old Mike Tyson, 500yr old Archie moore, 500yr old Joe Louis, 500yr Old Zora Folley, Henry Cooper, Terry Daniels, Ron Stander, Jean Pierre Coopman, Chuck Wepner, Old washed up Joe Frazier.

Of course this is never mentioned when selling Ali, or Rocky Marciano as all time greats.

Speaking of having trouble with lesser opposition:

*old washed up Floyd Patterson gave Ali Fits
* Useless Henry Cooper Almost knocked Ali the fornicate out
*All time great Doug Jones Gave him nightmares.
* He Lost his only match up with Unbeaten Joe Frazier
* Karl Mildenburger hurt him badly to the body all the way through
* He beat useless Richard Dunn (hooray!)
* Ken Norton Beat him like a dog....three times!
*...So Did Jimmy Young!
*...so Did earnie Shavers!
*..Ron Lyle was dominanting on points against him!
* He Lost his title to a man with 6 WINS! and people say Holmes disgraced the division by losing to an ATG light heavy.

And this is the highlights of the "greatest of all time"

Holmes would have beaten most of the all time greats, louis might KO him, Liston might outjab him. The rest he would beat.

The_Power wrote:Larry Holmes is easily in the top 3 of all time.

You should have quit right here, while you were ahead...

The fact he had "trouble" with so-called lesser fighters was because he decided to mix it up and risk it when he could have easily danced around them and won every round.

Holmes was great, what you just said makes him look like he utilized poor strategy...he had trouble with some guys because he wasn't perfect, none of them are...

He beat Norton By 3 or 4 clear rounds, it was a good fight, but clear to score.

...only for you...2 of the judges had Holmes winning by a point, one other had him down a point...I watched it on live TV...was rooting for Holmes big time...I wasn't sure he would get the decision...he barely squeaked by...absolutely didn't win by 4 rounds...

He beat Ali like a whipped dog, and taught him a lesson in manners he'd never forget.

He 'beat' a 38 year old man after a 2 year loyoff...hardly 'spirited competition'...Tyson did the exact same thing to Holmes...that wasn't exactly 'spirited competition' either...so WTF?

Then again, plenty of people had done that to Ali, just never got the decision.

Heard that same criticism about Holmes...don't agree with them either...

Renaldo Snipes, Cooney, and shavers where dangerous live opponents, far better than Richard Dunn, Michael Grant, Tony Galento, Danny Williams, Fat Old Mike Tyson, 500yr old Archie moore, 500yr old Joe Louis, 500yr Old Zora Folley, Henry Cooper, Terry Daniels, Ron Stander, Jean Pierre Coopman, Chuck Wepner, Old washed up Joe Frazier.

You're obviously prone to unrealistic exaggeration......

Of course this is never mentioned when selling Ali, or Rocky Marciano as all time greats.

Sounds like your old pal, Terap...just exactly who 'sells' Ali & Marciano anyway? Fans who post here? Everyone's entitled to their own opinion...it doesn't make money for me...'sells' is a bad way of putting it...

Speaking of having trouble with lesser opposition:

*old washed up Floyd Patterson gave Ali Fits

...when...it was a one sided domination...are you blind?

* Useless Henry Cooper Almost knocked Ali the fornicate out

Clay was jerking off, paying more attention to people at ringside when he got clipped...he also got up and proceeded to tear Cooper up the next round...same in the rematch

*All time great Doug Jones Gave him nightmares.

If Jones went on to become a legendary champion, you'd be saying Clay gave him nightmares...it was a close competitive fight...young Clay won 6-4...and people like you still cry about it 40 years later...send me your address, I'll send you a years supply of tissue to wipe your eyes...

* He Lost his only match up with Unbeaten Joe Frazier

...after a 3 1/2 year layoff...if Holmes had a 3 1/2 year layoff...and had to fight the 3/8/71 Frazier...he would have been beaten too...period...

* Karl Mildenburger hurt him badly to the body all the way through

...one time...one time Mildenberger caught him with a good body shot...Mildenberger was a half decent fighter and a southpaw...

* He beat useless Richard Dunn (hooray!)

...kind of like Holmes beating Scott Frank & Marvis Frazier (hooray-hooray!)... ...name a fighter who didn't fight some stiffs?...

* Ken Norton Beat him like a dog....three times!

...like hell he did...and Norton was good enough to almost beat Holmes, like it or not...and Holmes was in his prime...Ali absolutely was not in his prime...

*...So Did Jimmy Young!

Young lost, remember...kept sticking his head between the ropes out of the ring eveytime Ali came in on him...that's not how you win a fight...Ali was old, out of shape...and Jimmy Young was still scared enough of him that he would duck down and stick his head between the ropes...WTF?

*...so Did earnie Shavers!

...Shavers lost, remember...he got in some good shots though...so did Ali..

*..Ron Lyle was dominanting on points against him!

...yeah...right before he was caught by that right that had him staggering into the ropes and not fighting back...Lyle looked like he was about to get hurt to me...he also didn't argue with the ref...until his head cleared...

* He Lost his title to a man with 6 WINS! and people say Holmes disgraced the division by losing to an ATG light heavy.

Ali lost at 36, over weight and out of shape...he should have been retired for 2 years by then...Holmes apparently should have retired himself by the time he fought Spinks...I thought he looked old against Spinks...so did the judges...

And this is the highlights of the "greatest of all time"

I'm sorry...I thought you were talking about Ali, not Joe Louis...

Holmes would have beaten most of the all time greats, louis might KO him, Liston might outjab him. The rest he would beat.

I'd expect Holmes to be able to outpoint Liston...I don't think he'd outpoint a prime Ali and he couldn't hit hard enough to KO him at 38...Holmes would also have enormous trouble with Jack Johnson...he'd have trouble with the 3/8/71 Joe Frazier...only the super punchers would have taken that version of Frazier...Holmes was not a super puncher...Holmes was great, but like the rest, he was human...I loved watching Holmes, saw 2 of his defenses live at ringside...he's rock solid top 10 material...and perhaps the best heavy I've ever seen...(mostly because Ali was old when I saw him live...I also saw Clay fight in Pittsburgh in Jan. 1963...but he was 'still in school' at that point...)

I don't take anything away from Holmes, one of the greats...
You shouldn't sell Ali short either...he was substantially better than you seem to think...

The_Power wrote:
Speaking of having trouble with lesser opposition:

*old washed up Floyd Patterson gave Ali Fits
* Useless Henry Cooper Almost knocked Ali the fornicate out
*All time great Doug Jones Gave him nightmares.
* He Lost his only match up with Unbeaten Joe Frazier
* Karl Mildenburger hurt him badly to the body all the way through
* He beat useless Richard Dunn (hooray!)
* Ken Norton Beat him like a dog....three times!
*...So Did Jimmy Young!
*...so Did earnie Shavers!
*..Ron Lyle was dominanting on points against him!
* He Lost his title to a man with 6 WINS! and people say Holmes disgraced the division by losing to an ATG light heavy.

And this is the highlights of the "greatest of all time"

Holmes would have beaten most of the all time greats, louis might KO him, Liston might outjab him. The rest he would beat.

I don't think you are giving the whole story when you make those Ali comments. Let's address these 11 points:

1) Floyd Patterson did fight Ali well. And even though it was the last year of his career, Patterson was a Top 10 contender and had beaten Oscar Bonavena earlier that year. Not exactly washed up material, even though Floyd wasn't in his prime. Floyd was a better fighter after he lost the championship then he was while he held it, IMO.

2) Yes, but Ali came back and won. Holmes was knocked down by Shavers and Snipes, and came back to win. The great Sugar Ray Robinson was knocked down by Tommy Bell in his first title fight, and this is rightly not held against him. Knockdowns happen, but the great ones come back and win.

3) Ali fought Doug Jones, a Top 10 contender, in his 18th pro fight and 4th year as a pro. It was the main event at MSG. Larry Holmes in his 18th fight fought Leon Shaw. Who? In Holmes's 4th year as a pro, he fought Tom Prater, Horace Robinson, Fred Houpe, and Ibar Arrington. If Holmes fought a Doug Jones then, he would have struggled too.

4) This one is really stretching your credibility. Frazier is one of the great heavyweights of All-Time and Ali was coming off 2 fights and a 3 1/2 year layoff. Ali fought extremely well considering the situation and how good Frazier was that night. There is no shame in this.

5) Mildenberger fought better than expected, but Ali should have won more convincingly. Ali wasn't hurt, however, he just took more punches than usual.

6) You mention Richard Dunn, how about Scott Frank for Holmes? If you want to mention Coopman, how about Lucien Rodriguez for Holmes? When you make a lot of title defenses, there will always be some stiffs in there, especially in this modern era of boxing. Those are throw away fights, and you don't hear historians knocking fighters for one or two meaningless defenses.

7) Ken Norton did not beat Ali 3 times. Ali won the 2nd fight. At least Ali was willing to fight the guy who gave him trouble again. Where was a rematch for Tim Witherspoon after the close fight with Holmes? How about a Ken Norton rematch? While Norton definitely had Ali's number, at least Ali was willing to fight him and Holmes did not rematch the fighters that gave him trouble.

8, 9, 10, and 11) That was a past his prime Ali. No one says that Ali from 1976-1981 was a great fighter. If Rocky stayed around longer, he would have had a period like this too. In fact, every fight after the Thrilla in Manila was a past his prime Ali. If you want to hold his past the prime results against Ali, you have to say that Tyson tattooed Holmes, Oliver McCall was better than Holmes, Evander Holyfield won an easy decision, etc. It's ridiculous to do, and I'm surprised you would go there.

dnahr32.......good solid reasonable and supportable post. Well thought out and well articulated.

dnahar32 wrote

2) Yes, but Ali came back and won. Holmes was knocked down by Shavers and Snipes, and came back to win. The great Sugar Ray Robinson was knocked down by Tommy Bell in his first title fight, and this is rightly not held against him. Knockdowns happen, but the great ones come back and win.

u forgot to add ali beat shavers when ali was 35 years old and way past his prime. ali was a shell of his former self and still beat shavers. holmes was in his prime when he fought shavers.

ali was not in his prime against a prime norton. and even still, ali beat him two of of three and those decision were all fair. a PRIME holmes faced norton who was 35 and u could argue that norton beat holmes.

Alie was not the same fighter after frazier 1, though his absolute peak was in 66. all of alis title defenses in the 70s mean that those challengers in the BEST ERA OF HEAVYWEIGHTS could not take the title from a past his prime aging man.

Enough of these Ali informational facts and factoids, you'll only confuse Tantum if he happens to read any of this, he'll be so upset he'll get his medications confused again. And then.....well we all know what happens then.

BoxBuzz wrote:Enough of these Ali informational facts and factoids, you'll only confuse Tantum if he happens to read any of this, he'll be so upset he'll get his medications confused again. And then.....well we all know what happens then.

...a barrage of sarcastic one liners???...

power wrote

Renaldo Snipes, Cooney, and shavers where dangerous live opponents, far better than Richard Dunn, Michael Grant, Tony Galento, Danny Williams, Fat Old Mike Tyson, 500yr old Archie moore, 500yr old Joe Louis, 500yr Old Zora Folley, Henry Cooper, Terry Daniels, Ron Stander, Jean Pierre Coopman, Chuck Wepner, Old washed up Joe Frazier.

Of course this is never mentioned when selling Ali, or Rocky Marciano as all time greats.

ill take the 42 (minus 20) year old archie moore that fought marciaono to knock out renaldo snipes and outbox and beat earnie shavers and outbox gerry cooney. archie would completerly outsmart and wear down shavers and shavers would get hit hard by arhcie moore and be finished. moore will outbox gerry cooney or will be trying to throw that left hook but not trhough archie defense. archie would TAKE APART renaldo snipes.

even a 37 year old louis was better than renaldo snipes and possibly gerry cooney. two ton tony galento would knock out renaldo snipes. old washed up frazier still beats cooney and snipes. and RON STANDER KNOCKED EARNIE SHAVERS OUT SO BY MENTIONING HIM UR NOT GETTIN ANYWHERE.

according to "sweetscientist", holmes could walk on water, heal the sick, and raise the dead.

wlvrne wrote:according to "sweetscientist", holmes could walk on water, heal the sick, and raise the dead.

...that's right...go from thread to thread making your jerk off comments....I think you're mad because I wouldn't respond to your PM when you were fighting with VhsWes...just another new 'shit stirrer'...some of this 'class of 2005' leaves a lot to be desired...

Au contraire, mon ami. or do you even know what that means?