BoxRec

do you think Gerry Cooney is overated as a fighter or puncher?????

as a fighter, he really never beat ANY contenders. his first 20 fights he beat on club fighters with losing records, or inexperienced fighters that had fought only 5 fights. the only decent fighters cooney beat was 35-2 Dino Dennis who was a jounrey man and future cruiserweight champ St gordan. St gordan was inexperienced though. then he faces a washed up and aging jimmy young who had just lost to norton, osscie osacio twice and micheal dokes. if young was in his prime he could have outboxed cooney like he did to lyle. then, cooney faces a old way out of his prime ron lyle who he knocks out. then cooney faces a by now way past his prime norton who had left everything in the ring against holmes, then was brutally knocked out by shavers and then nearly beaten by scott le doux and tex cobb. cooney nearly killed norton but that didnt prove much. he just beat 3 fighters that were way past their prime and basically had nothing left. then he gets a title shot???? why didnt he face earne shavers???????

cooney gave holmes a decent battle proving he wasnt a tomato can, but still got thourougly beaten. it seems to me cause cooney was white he got all the hype and because he wa a big guy with a decent punch. after cooney lost to holmes, the only notible he beat was journeyman goerge chaplin then retired only to comeback and lose to foreman, and spinks.

how come he never went for a Alpahbet soup title?????? he never faced a mike weaver, or john tate, or greg page, pinlon thomas, or gerri coatzee??

how would he have fared aganst the other 80s hevayweights???

...this thread is overrated...

Cooney just seemed to collapse after losing to Holmes. He should have gone on and got himself a shot aty another title. he seemed good enough to mix it with the others.

I heard rumours that he turned to drink etc.. and was very depressed after losing to Holmes. I think Cooney's lack of achievement alos hurt Larry's legacy because it now looks like a total mismatch of a superfight. Cooney looks good enough to have won a version of one of the alphabet boys' title at that time.

The only thing is why didn't he do this pre-Holmes fight? The bout could then have been a unification fight? maybe Gerry's men didn't want to risk the pay day. maybe they didn't have 100% confidence in their man.

Thirty plus years ago? Yes he was over hyped and overrated. Today? No. He's become so underrated that some might pic Zack Page to beat him.

Nile4000 wrote:If Gerry's people were smart, they would've fought Mike Weaver

They tried... Bob Arum talked the WBA into having Weaver defend his title against #4 challenger James Quick Tillis.. At the end of the day, the supposed excuse was that Cooney was already committed to another fight, which given the timing of the Weaver vs Tillis match, I can only assume was Holmes. But something tells me Arum wanted to keep his champion, and fighting the gentleman wasn't the best way to do it.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

Nile4000 wrote:If Gerry's people were smart, they would've fought Mike Weaver

They tried... Bob Arum talked the WBA into having Weaver defend his title against #4 challenger James Quick Tillis.. At the end of the day, the supposed excuse was that Cooney was already committed to another fight, which given the timing of the Weaver vs Tillis match, I can only assume was Holmes. But something tells me Arum wanted to keep his champion, and fighting the gentleman wasn't the best way to do it.

People tend to forget Cooney was scheduled to fight Earnie Shavers, but suffered an injury in training, and that Tex Cobb got the fight with Shavers instead---- Cooney did color commentary with Ken Norton on the fight. All in all, Gerry was inactive for over a year before taking on Holmes.

HomicideHenry wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

Nile4000 wrote:If Gerry's people were smart, they would've fought Mike Weaver

They tried... Bob Arum talked the WBA into having Weaver defend his title against #4 challenger James Quick Tillis.. At the end of the day, the supposed excuse was that Cooney was already committed to another fight, which given the timing of the Weaver vs Tillis match, I can only assume was Holmes. But something tells me Arum wanted to keep his champion, and fighting the gentleman wasn't the best way to do it.

People tend to forget Cooney was scheduled to fight Earnie Shavers, but suffered an injury in training, and that Tex Cobb got the fight with Shavers instead---- Cooney did color commentary with Ken Norton on the fight. All in all, Gerry was inactive for over a year before taking on Holmes.

The fight they really should have gone after was Cobb immediately following his win over Shavers, though I don't know if Norton was already in negotiations with Cobb's people. I've seen that fight and remember Cooney and Norton commentating at ringside. Apparently shavers had retina surgery before the bout. He hit Tex clean a bunch of times and was slightly ahead in cossel's opinion at the time of the stoppage. I think Cooney and Norton had cobb winning, but its been years since I've seen that fight.

Il Duce wrote:'Protected'



They pulled Gerry out of more scheduled bouts than any Heavyweight ever.

Can you provide that list and maybe some alleged reasons as to why?

P.S. That means not your own.

Il Duce wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

Il Duce wrote:'Protected'



They pulled Gerry out of more scheduled bouts than any Heavyweight ever.

Can you provide that list and maybe some alleged reasons as to why?

P.S. That means not your own.

Why you little............

Mike Jones and Dennis Rappaport said no to 'Greg Page' when it was first proposed to them in June 1981.

Madison Square Garden had the bout ready to go.............Dennis Rappaport said..........'NO'.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... J6pB3p1gSQ

Thanks. I skimmed through the article but only found the quote " Cooney's team isn't expected to sign to fight Page." But gave no rhyme nor reason. Still it was interesting to read about all the lawsuits that were going on between Arum, manual, etc..

Il Duce wrote:'Protected'

Gerry Cooney was 'protected' by the Whacko Twins {Managers}.

Gerry was their 'meal ticket', and they did everything to protect him and not take any
un-necessary chances.

They pulled Gerry out of more scheduled bouts than any Heavyweight ever.

Can you say 'Questionable Chin'.

When you have a profitable commodity, more than likely you don't want to ruin that commodity's reputation. The Whacko Twins were probably the biggest marketing geniuses of the passed thirty some odd years in boxing.

Besides that, early on in Cooney's career, the Twins approached Cus D'Amato to be Cooney's trainer and Cus said in good conscience he couldn't do Cooney any service, unless he was also Cooney's manager as well. So it isnt like they didn't make attempts to better Cooney's condition--- and D'Amato did recommend Victor Valle to the Twins.

On the surface, on paper, Cooney looked like a proven commodity. After all, he kayoed Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young, Ken Norton, etc. Forget the fact that none of those men had it any more. The name value alone was something better than gold. Very seldom do you find fighters in such excellent positions to have name fighters also be nothing more than opponents to your prospect.

As for Cooney having a "questionable chin", that wasn't Gerry's problem. Gerry was plenty tough enough. Gerry's problem was that he never really was ever tested, taken into deep waters, forced to fight harder than before, etc. which resulted in stamina issues and by proxy confidence issues. He was never the same guy after Holmes--- he was built up in the minds of millions, and in his own mind, that he was in the same league as Larry. He was fed so much press and hype, that he believed that he was not only ready, but that he was in the same level of greatness as Marciano.

That loss to Holmes was something that ultimately destroyed Gerry Cooney not only as a fighter, but his esteem and overall worth as a human being. He was lead to believe he was something he wasn't, and was lead to believe he was capable of being the heavyweight champion of the world--- it was extremely detrimental to Cooney's mental/emotional makeup. As a result, he became a full blown cocaine addict and alcoholic--- his family mooching off whatever finances he had, and was forced into coming back to keep his family around, even though they were using him.

Even in his state of mind, shattered and confused, he destroyed prospects like Eddie Gregg and (again) won over fans in the build up to Cooney-Spinks, because people expected Gerry to be too big and powerful for Spinks. Fast forward almost a decade later--- with no tune up's, he faces George Foreman and loses. However, even as an old man, Foreman to this day insists that Cooney hit him with the single hardest punch of his entire career.

I think that speaks volumes of Cooney--- he had the potential to be great, but he wasn't built up and prepared right. Even being essentially a hype job, he was probably the greatest of all hype jobs--- just a shade away from being a legitimite threat.

Gerry Cooney's ratings tend to be very erratic and all over the place. There are some who believe that if handled properly he could have been champion and ascended into the fraternity of all time great heavyweights. There are others who feel he was nothing more than an overhyped novelty who's abilities were fringe level at best. I am in neither camp. In my mind Gerry Cooney was never going to be an elite fighter himself. but I also believe that you HAD to be an elite fighter yourself to beat him. I think Cooney had some unrepairable limitations that would always hold him back from beating a Tyson, Holmes or Ali. But when well prepared I think he had all the right tools to beat a Page, Coetzee, Weaver or Berbick. At his best there were only a handful of heavy's between 1980-1989 who would have my vote to triumph over Cooney, and most would have had their hands full.

Il Duce wrote:More Cancellations

* Earnie Shavers
* Joe Bugner
* Mike Koranicki

Throw in; * Gordie Racette, * Larry Frazier, * Walter E. Moore, * Stan Ward

And none of those guys would of beat Gerry in that time period, I'm sorry.

Proof? Well, look at Marvis Frazier vs. Joe Bugner. 80's Bugner was shot all the pieces.

Proof? Tex Cobb vs. Shavers. If Cobb, who had no fire power, could kayo Earnie, then there you go.

As for the others... who? who? and who?

I agree that Cooney could have likely beaten them at that time.....however any of them could have taken something out of him......So......it was smart to cherry pick, and make a good living along the way. Avoiding those who could do him no good financially and selecting those that were good bets he could beat.building a rep...toward the good money fight/s.....along the gold paved yellow brick road.

Guy didn't ever beat a good fighter, do he must be!

Il Duce wrote:More Cancellations

* Earnie Shavers
* Joe Bugner
* Mike Koranicki

Throw in; * Gordie Racette, * Larry Frazier, * Walter E. Moore, * Stan Ward

I don't know the reasons behind Cooney's camp not taking these fights, but seriously doubt that fear of them ruining him was among one of the top reasons. Joe Bugner even in his prime was non-aggressive and not very powerful. He was a good survivalist and could be tricky at times though. By the 1980's he was pretty well shot. Shavers by 1980 was looking more and more beatable. Stan Ward would have been a good test. He was sort of a lesser version of Jimmy Young being quick, elusive and difficult to put away. Don't know anything about Walter Moore so I'll leave that one alone. Larry Frazier was dangerous but also vulnerable, as was Mike Koranicki. Gordon Racette wouldn't have lasted more than a few rounds with Cooney.

Il Duce wrote:Gerry Cooney

Victor Valle had a lot of 'closed' sparring sessions with Gerry.

Being from New York, I could tell you the rumors were always flying around that Gerry got
'starched' more than a few times out in the Huntington, Long Island 'secret gym'.

All '3' New York Newspapers {Daily News, New York Post and New York Newsday} had snippets
of Gerry getting 'laid out' by Heavyweight - Larry Alexander in 1980.

Witherspoon beat him up too, and THAT is one of a few fighters that I also would have picked to beat him in a professional ring. But a fully motivated Witherspoon is also someone that I'd favor to dispatch a lot of 80's heavyweights. Dude was just tough all over. Larry Alexander was a tough cookie for a journeyman.

It was frustrating being a Cooney fan in the 80s. Seems like we were always hearing about an upcoming Cooney fight, only for it to be postponed or cancelled due to a Cooney injury. Or in the case of the Norton fight, MAPScam. I recall a scheduled Bugner fight & think I remember an Eddie Lopez rematch. The post Holmes fight against Phil Brown was postponed a number of times. Of course none of these fighters were in all likelihood serious threats to Cooney. But it would have been nice to have seen him in the ring more often.

As it happened, these postponments didn't hurt Gerry's earning power. Instead they built his mystique. Even today we wonder what could have been. Meanwhile Cooney, unlike several 80s heavyweights we would have liked to have seen him in the ring with, (presumably) still has his health and money.

Shavers/Cobb was on the Hearns/Cuevas undercard, it wasn't televised live but CBS showed a replay. No Cosell.

He's only over-rated nowadays on the Boxrec BOTP forum . . .

dempseyfire wrote:He's only over-rated nowadays on the Boxrec BOTP forum . . .

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:He's only over-rated nowadays on the Boxrec BOTP forum . . .

x3

Cooney was decent HW with not a single win over a top ranked contender. All of these Cooney love in threads are almost as bad as all of the Il Duce threads.

The Great John L wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:He's only over-rated nowadays on the Boxrec BOTP forum . . .

x3

Cooney was decent HW with not a single win over a top ranked contender.

Ring magazine had Norton Ranked #10 and the WBA had Gregg ranked #3 ( though probably not deserved. ) That's just off the top of my head. so yours is not exactly an accurate comment.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:
Ring magazine had Norton Ranked #10 and the WBA had Gregg ranked #3 ( though probably not deserved. ) That's just off the top of my head. so yours is not exactly an accurate comment.

I dont know how that is even possible, considering Norton was inactive for almost 2 years prior to facing Cooney, and before that fought a draw with LeDoux and won a split decision over Tex Cobb. Hardly the kind of matches, I would think, to maintain a top ten ranking for any organisation or syndicate.

HomicideHenry wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:
Ring magazine had Norton Ranked #10 and the WBA had Gregg ranked #3 ( though probably not deserved. ) That's just off the top of my head. so yours is not exactly an accurate comment.

I dont know how that is even possible, considering Norton was inactive for almost 2 years prior to facing Cooney, and before that fought a draw with LeDoux and won a split decision over Tex Cobb. Hardly the kind of matches, I would think, to maintain a top ten ranking for any organisation or syndicate.

As selected by the ring magazine in the March 1981 issue. Ken Norton is ranked #10.

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_R ... ings:_1980

I assume the win over Cobb combined with his name recognition was what got him the rating. You have to remember both Cobb and Ledoux got title shots against Holmes for whatever that's worth. Marty Monroe was ranked #6 and I don't know who the hell he ever beat to get that rating.