BoxRec

This is a bit of a joke. I thought he should only be moved into second place, but 10th? Considering he didn't do anything in that fight against Taylor to suggest he is any worse a fighter, I think it's a bit harsh.

For Period Ended July 18, 2005
POUND-FOR-POUND
1. FLOYD MAYWEATHER
Junior Welterweight
2. WINKY WRIGHT
Junior Middleweight
3. MARCO ANTONIO BARRERA
Junior Lightweight
4. ERIK MORALES
Junior Lightweight
5. MANNY PACQUIAO
Featherweight
6. JUAN MANUEL MARQUEZ
Featherweight
7. RICKY HATTON
Junior Welterweight
8. DIEGO CORRALES
Lightweight
9. JERMAIN TAYLOR
Middleweight
10. BERNARD HOPKINS
Middleweight

HEAVYWEIGHTS
Weight Unlimited
Champ: VITALI KLITSCHKO Ukraine 35-2 (34)
1. CHRIS BYRD Flint, MI 38-2-1 (20)
2. JOHN RUIZ Methuen, MA 41-5-1 (28)
3. HASIM RAHMAN Baltimore, MD 40-5-1 (33)
4. JAMES TONEY Ann Arbor, MI 68-4-2 (43)
5. MONTE BARRETT Queens, NY 31-3 (17)
6. LAMON BREWSTER Los Angeles, CA 32-2 (28)
7. CALVIN BROCK Charlotte, NC 26-0 (21)
8. SAMUEL PETER Las Vegas, NV 24-0 (21)
9. WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO Ukraine 44-3 (40)
10. JAMEEL McCLINE Clifton, NJ 31-5-3 (19)

CRUISERWEIGHTS
Weight Limit: 200 pounds
Champ: JEAN-MARC MORMECK France 31-2 (21)
1. WAYNE BRAITHWAITE Guyana 21-1 (17)
2. JOHNNY NELSON England 44-12-2 (29)
3. CARL THOMPSON England 33-6 (25)
4. STEVE CUNNINGHAM Philadelphia, PA 17-0 (9)
5. GUILLERMO JONES Panama 32-3-2 (25)
6. O'NEIL BELL Atlanta, GA 24-1-1 (22)
7. DALE BROWN Canada 33-4-1 (21)
8. PIETRO AURINO Italy 33-2 (16)
9. ALEXANDER GUROV Ukrain 38-4-1 (33)
10. KRZYSZTOF WLODARCZYK Poland 32-1 (25)

LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHTS
Weight Limit: 175 pounds
Champ: ANTONIO TARVER Orlando, FL 23-3 (18)
1. GLEN JOHNSON Miami, FL 42-10-2 (28)
2. ZSOLT ERDEI Hungary 22-0 (13)
3. ROY JONES Pensacola, FL 49-3 (38)
4. JULIO GONZALEZ Huntington Beach, CA 38-2 (23)
5. FABRICE TIOZZO France 47-2 (31)
6. CLINTON WOODS England 37-3-1 (23)
7. TOMASZ ADAMEK Poland 29-0 (20)
8. PAUL BRIGGS Australia 23-2 (17)
9. THOMAS ULRICH Germany 28-1 (19)
10. MONTELL GRIFFIN Chicago, IL 47-6 (30)

SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHTS
Weight Limit: 168 pounds
Champ: Vacant
1. JOE CALZAGHE Wales 39-0 (31)
2. MIKKEL KESSLER Denmark 36-0 (27)
3. MARKUS BEYER Germany 32-2 (12)
4. JEFF LACY St. Petersburg, FL 19-0 (15)
5. ANTHONY MUNDINE Australia 23-3 (18)
6. DANNY GREEN Australia 20-2 (19)
7. ROBIN REID England 38-4-1 (27)
8. MANNY SIACA Puerto Rico 18-5 (16)
9. OTIS GRANT Canada 37-2-1 (17)
10. LIBRADO ANDRADE Mexico 22-0 (16)

MIDDLEWEIGHTS
Weight Limit: 160 pounds
Champ: JERMAIN TAYLOR Little Rock, AR 24-0 (17)
1. BERNARD HOPKINS Philadelphia, PA 46-3-1 (32)
2. WINKY WRIGHT St. Petersburg, FL 49-3 (25)
3. FELIX STURM Germany 24-1 (11)
4. ARTHUR ABRAHAM Germany 16-0 (14)
5. HOWARD EASTMAN England 40-3 (35)
6. OSCAR DE LA HOYA Los Angeles, CA 37-4 (29)
7. KINGSLEY IKEKE Canada 23-1 (13)
8. SAM SOLIMAN Australia 30-7 (12)
9. FERNANDO VARGAS Oxnard, CA 25-2 (22)
10. CHAD DAWSON New Haven, CT 18-0 (12)

JR. MIDDLEWEIGHTS
Weight Limit: 154 pounds
Champ: WINKY WRIGHT St. Petersburg, FL 49-3 (25)
1. ROMAN KARMAZIN Russia 34-1-1 (21)
2. KASSIM OUMA W. Palm Beach, FL 21-2-1 (13)
3. DANIEL SANTOS Puerto Rico 29-2-1 (20)
4. IKE QUARTEY Ghana 36-2-1 (30)
5. VERNO PHILLIPS Aurora, CO 38-10-1 (20)
6. TRAVIS SIMMS Norwalk, CT 24-0 (18)
7. JAVIER CASTILLEJO Spain 58-5 (40)
8. RODNEY JONES Lafayette, LA 36-3 (22)
9. KOFI JANTUAH Las Vegas, NV 28-2 (18)
10. ALEJANDRO GARCIA Mexico 24-1 (24)

WELTERWEIGHTS
Weight Limit: 147 pounds
Champ: ZAB JUDAH Brooklyn, NY 34-2 (25)
1. ANTONIO MARGARITO Mexico 32-4 (23)
2. CORY SPINKS St. Louis, MO 34-3 (11)
3. SHANE MOSLEY Pomona, CA 40-4 (35)
4. THOMAS DAMGAARD Denmark 36-0 (27)
5. LUIS COLLAZO Queens, NY 25-1 (11)
6. KERMIT CINTRON Reading, PA 24-1 (22)
7. JOSE ANTONIO RIVERA Worcester, MA 37-4-1(24)
8. OKTAY URKAL Germany 35-3 (11)
9. DAVID ESTRADA Chicago, IL 18-2 (9)
10. SEBASTIAN LUJAN Argentina 22-2-1 (14)

JR. WELTERWEIGHTS
Weight Limit: 140 pounds
Champ: RICKY HATTON England 39-0 (29)
1. FLOYD MAYWEATHER Grand Rapids, MI 34-0 (23)
2. MIGUEL COTTO Puerto Rico 24-0 (20)
3. CARLOS MAUSSA Colombia 18-2 (16)
4. KOSTYA TSZYU Australia 31-2 (25)
5. JUNIOR WITTER England 32-1-2 (19)
6. ARTURO GATTI Jersey City, NJ 39-7 (30)
7. VIVIAN HARRIS Brooklyn, NY 25-2-1 (17)
8. DeMARCUS CORLEY Washington, D.C. 29-4-1 (16)
9. LOVEMORE NDOU Australia 40-8-1 (26)
10. SOULEYMANE M'BAYE France 32-1 (17)

LIGHTWEIGHTS
Weight Limit: 135 pounds
Champ: DIEGO CORRALES Las Vegas, NV 40-2 (33)
1. JOSE LUIS CASTILLO Mexico 52-7-1 (46)
2. JOEL CASAMAYOR Miami, FL 31-3-1 (19)
3. JUAN LAZCANO El Paso, TX 33-3-1 (25)
4. JUAN DIAZ Houston, TX 28-0 (14)
5. JULIO DIAZ Coachella, CA 31-3 (23)
6. ACELINO FREITAS Brazil 36-1 (31)
7. ALMAZBEK RAIYMKULOV Kyrgyzstan 20-0-1 (12)
8. RICKY QUILES Puerto Rico 38-6-3 (8)
9. JULIEN LORCY France 56-4-2 (41)
10. JOSE SANTA CRUZ Mexico 20-0 (11)

JR. LIGHTWEIGHTS
Weight Limit: 130 pounds
Champ: Vacant
1. MARCO ANTONIO BARRERA Mexico 60-4 (42)
2. ERIK MORALES Mexico 48-2 (34)
3. MANNY PACQUIAO Philippines 39-3-2 (30)
4. JESUS CHAVEZ Mexico 41-3 (28) 5. VICENTE MOSQUERA Panama 21-1-1 (10)
6. YODSANAN NANTHACHAI Thailand 44-3-1 (25)
7. JORGE BARRIOS Argentina 43-2-1 (31)
8. CARLOS HERNANDEZ Bellflower, CA 41-5-1 (24)
9. CASSIUS BALOYI South Africa 31-1 (16)
10. ROBBIE PEDEN Australia 25-2 (14)

FEATHERWEIGHTS
Weight Limit: 126 pounds
Champ: Vacant
1. JUAN MANUEL MARQUEZ Mexico 44-2-1 (33)
2. INJIN CHI South Korea 30-2-1 (18)
3. ROCKY JUAREZ Houston, TX 23-0 (16)
4. SCOTT HARRISON Scotland 24-2-2 (14)
5. VICTOR POLO Colombia 34-5-3 (24)
6. MANUEL MEDINA Mexico 63-14 (29)
7. CHRIS JOHN Indonesia 35-0-1 (19)
8. SPEND ABAZI Denmark 32-1 (10)
9. NICKY COOK England 25-0 (15)
10. HIROYUKI ENOKI Japan 22-0-1 (17)

JR. FEATHERWEIGHTS
Weight Limit: 122 pounds
Champ: Vacant
1. OSCAR LARIOS Mexico 56-3-1 (36)
2. MAHYAR MONSHIPOUR France 28-2-2 (19)
3. ISRAEL VAZQUEZ Mexico 38-3 (28)
4. JOAN GUZMAN Dominican Republic 23-0 (17)
5. RICARDO CORDOBA Panama 25-0 (17)
6. CELESTINO CABALLERO Panama 22-2 (16)
7. YODDAMRONG SITHYODTHONG Thailand 42-2-1 (18)
8. SERGIO MANUEL MEDINA Argentina 22-0 (13)
9. GABULA VABAZA South Africa 21-0-1 (5)
10. SHOJI KIMURA Japan 18-0-1 (7)

BANTAMWEIGHTS
Weight Limit: 118 pounds
Champ: Vacant
1. RAFAEL MARQUEZ Mexico 34-3 (30)
2. HOZUMI HASEGAWA Japan 18-2 (5)
3. VEERAPOL SAHAPROM Thailand 48-2-2 (34)
4. RATANACHAI VORAPIN Thailand 63-8 (42)
5. SILENCE MABUZA South Africa 18-0 (15)
6. GENARO GARCIA Mexico 34-4 (20)
7. CRUZ CARVAJAL Mexico 25-13-1 (21)
8. RICARDO VARGAS Mexico 38-11-3 (12)
9.JHONNY GONZALEZ Mexico 29-4 (25)
10. WLADIMIR SIDORENKO Ukraine 17-0 (6)

JR. BANTAMWEIGHTS
Weight Limit: 115 pounds
Champ: Vacant
1. MARTIN CASTILLO Mexico 29-1 (16)
2. MASAMORI TOKUYAMA North Korea 31-3-1 (8)
3. LUIS PEREZ Nicaragua 23-1 (15)
4. FERNANDO MONTIEL Mexico 31-1-1 (24)
5. ALEXANDER MUNOZ Venezuela 27-1 (25)
6. KATSUSHIGE KAWASHIMA Japan 28-4 (18)
7. JOSE NAVARRO Los Angeles, CA 22-1 (9)
8. IVAN HERNANDEZ Mexico 21-1-1 (13)
9. MARK JOHNSON Washington, D.C. 44-4 (28)
10. ERIC MOREL Madison, WI 35-2 (18)

FLYWEIGHTS
Weight Limit: 112 pounds
Champ: Vacant
1. PONGSAKLEK WONJONGKAM Thailand 56-2 (31)
2. LORENZO PARRA Venezuela 25-0 (17)
3. VIC DARCHINYAN Australia 23-0 (18)
4. IRENE PACHECO Colombia 29-1 (22)
5. OMAR NARVAEZ Argentina 19-0-2 (13)
6. JORGE ARCE Mexico 39-3-1 (29)
7. ROSENDO ALVAREZ Nicaragua 34-2-2 (22)
8. BRAHIM ASLOUM France 19-0 (7)
9. TAKEFUMI SAKATA Japan 23-2-1 (10)
10. HUSSEIN HUSSEIN Australia 28-2 (21)

JR. FLYWEIGHTS
Weight Limit: 108 pounds
Champ: Vacant
1. ROBERTO VASQUEZ Panama 19-1 (16)
2. WILL GRIGSBY St. Paul, MN 18-2-1 (11)
3. VICTOR BURGOS Mexico 37-14-3 (22)
4. HUGO CAZARES Mexico 20-3-1 (14)
5. PICHITNOI SIRIWAT Thailand 34-2 (15)
6. NELSON DIEPPA Puerto Rico 22-2-2 (13)
7. ERIC ORTIZ Mexico 24-4-1 (16)
8. ULISES SOLIS Mexico 17-1 (13)
9. JOSE AGUIRRE Mexico 33-3-1 (20)
10. KERMIN GUARDIA Colombia 35-4 (21)

STRAWWEIGHTS
Weight Limit: 105 pounds
Champ: Vacant
1. YUTAKA NIIDA Japan 18-1-3 (8)
2. MUHAMMAD RACHMAN Indonesia 50-7-4 (22)
3. IVAN CALDERON Puerto Rico 23-0 (5)
4. KATSUNARI TAKAYAMA Japan 15-1 (7)
5. ISAAC BUSTOS Mexico 24-7-3 (13)
6. EAGLE KYOWA Japan 13-1 (5)
7. JUAN LANDAETA Venezuela 18-3-1 (15)
8. OMAR SOTO Mexico 14-2-1 (10)
9. DANIEL REYES Colombia 34-3-1 (29)
10. RODEL MAYOL Philippines 21-0 (16)

Hopkins goes from 1 to 10 and Pacquoi stays at 5 despite losing to Morales.

Mental.

The funniest thing on that list is 3. Carlos Maussa...

Nope the funniest thing is 7 Vivian Harris who lost to him.

The funniest thing is that they have Winky far ahead of Bernard at # 2 in the PFP & then have him behind Bernard in the Middleweight Rankings,

Blue wrote: The funniest thing is that they have Winky far ahead of Bernard at # 2 in the PFP & then have him behind Bernard in the Middleweight Rankings,

Mayweather number one P4P, number 2 in his division. Number one in his division doesn't make the P4P lists...


I know they're compiled under different criteria, but this just shows the inanity of P4P...

number 1 in mayweathers division does make the lists. hes number 7

Rob1 wrote:number 1 in mayweathers division does make the lists. hes number 7

Ah right. Sorry, I wank too much.

Anomalous, then, but not horrendous.

Of course a fighter can be have a higher P4P ranking than he is in his division. The P4P rating is mythical and is based on what a fighter has achieved during his career and most recently and sometimes at different weights. If a guy with a high P4P ranking steps up in weight, of course he doesn't get a higher divisional ranking than that weights champion - he needs to beat the champion first or else prove he is better than him AT THAT WEIGHT.

johnswan1 wrote:Of course a fighter can be have a higher P4P ranking than he is in his division. The P4P rating is mythical and is based on what a fighter has achieved during his career and most recently and sometimes at different weights. If a guy with a high P4P ranking steps up in weight, of course he doesn't get a higher divisional ranking than that weights champion - he needs to beat the champion first or else prove he is better than him AT THAT WEIGHT.

Disagree. To a major extent the divisional rankings are mythical, mainly because you're guessing who would beat who.

And Mayweather, after 3 fights and over a year at 140, has to be considered as a light-welterweight. As such a pound-for-pound ranking should be the same as a divisional judgement.

If a high P4P guy steps up why shouldn't he get a higher ranking than the champion? There's as much validity in slipping him into a mythical top spot ina judgement call weight category list as there is to slip him in at 3 or 4. Or 27.

And if the argument is that this is because Hatton is 'The Ring' champion on the back of the Tszyu win, I have little respect for that title since Klitschko won it by being beaten.

I'm not saying Hatton should be the P4P number 1. But if you have a guy who you think is the best in the world at any weight, the idea of having him anywhere other than top spot in the class at which he campaigns is bonkers.


This I think goes to the problem with rankings - some of it is who has beaten who, some of it is judgement, and none of it really makes perfect logical sense, which means putting absolute numbers against names is daft. Far better to say that there is an 'elite group' of P4P fighters, or even fighters in a weight category. But that would raise no controversy and sell no magazines.

p4p is about skills not divisions. On pure skill terms, Mayweather is obviously superior to Hatton, and he's also won titles at a number of weights.

By your logic, the heavyweight champ would always be the #1 p4p as he would beat everyone else below him.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:p4p is about skills not divisions. On pure skill terms, Mayweather is obviously superior to Hatton, and he's also won titles at a number of weights.

By your logic, the heavyweight champ would always be the #1 p4p as he would beat everyone else below him.

Exactly. Think about it dudes 'pound for pound', what do those words mean?

P4P is the most sublective rating of all. THeavyweights are always missing. Can´t they box? I think it depends on what style you like. IMO Ricky Hatton boxes like a Heavyweight and his style is not that nice as Hopkins style. But he was succesful. So maybe there have to be more "P4P"-rankings. so i don´t take them seriuos.

Ring Magazine sucks. The Heavy-Ranking is over-americanised. Krasniqi and Valuev are missing.

Goz wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:p4p is about skills not divisions. On pure skill terms, Mayweather is obviously superior to Hatton, and he's also won titles at a number of weights.

By your logic, the heavyweight champ would always be the #1 p4p as he would beat everyone else below him.

Exactly. Think about it dudes 'pound for pound', what do those words mean?

Lads, it means that if these guys boxed at the same weight, then one guy would beat the other.

But Mayweather and Hatton do box at the same weight. That's the point. Mayweather may well be an ex-lightweight but that is now an irrelevance, especially if he's talking about going to 154. The guy is a light-welter, same as Hatton. If they boxed at the same weight, who would win? The P4P rankings say one thing, the divisional rankings say another. It's this mixture of subjectivity and history that doesn't sit.

And James, with the greatest respect my logic says nothing about heavyweights being the best P4P. My argument was the other way round, that Mayweather should be above Hatton in the 140 pound lists.

Coconut Said:


'This I think goes to the problem with rankings - some of it is who has beaten who, some of it is judgement, and none of it really makes perfect logical sense, which means putting absolute numbers against names is daft. Far better to say that there is an 'elite group' of P4P fighters, or even fighters in a weight category. But that would raise no controversy and sell no magazines.'


Absolutely right. but thats just the reality of boxing, which we have to accept. I'm with you on the 'elite group of p4p's', I think in our hearts, true boxing fans see it that way anyway, but like you say, the mags have got to sell.
However it's done, ranking boxers in a division will always cause some controversy. Some might see it as a bad thing, but I think its one of the things that makes boxing interesting. If the best boxers in a division are willing to face up to each other, so much the better, and less cause for argument. But that comes back to tv deals and money.

Coconut wrote:

Goz wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:p4p is about skills not divisions. On pure skill terms, Mayweather is obviously superior to Hatton, and he's also won titles at a number of weights.

By your logic, the heavyweight champ would always be the #1 p4p as he would beat everyone else below him.

Exactly. Think about it dudes 'pound for pound', what do those words mean?

Lads, it means that if these guys boxed at the same weight, then one guy would beat the other.

But Mayweather and Hatton do box at the same weight. That's the point. Mayweather may well be an ex-lightweight but that is now an irrelevance, especially if he's talking about going to 154. The guy is a light-welter, same as Hatton. If they boxed at the same weight, who would win? The P4P rankings say one thing, the divisional rankings say another. It's this mixture of subjectivity and history that doesn't sit.

And James, with the greatest respect my logic says nothing about heavyweights being the best P4P. My argument was the other way round, that Mayweather should be above Hatton in the 140 pound lists.

No disrespect Coconut but you are talking absolute bollox. PBF could go on a Hatton diet of burgers and chips and fight at Heavyweight if he really wanted to. This doesn't mean he would beat all the heavyweights just because he fights at the same weight as them. Your concept of P4P is totally incorrect and unfortunately a lot of other people don't understand it very well either. What you are effectively saying is that if PBF decides to campaign at 147, he should automatically be heralded as the king of the division because of his P4P ranking. This is absolute pants.

johnswan1 wrote:
No disrespect Coconut but you are talking absolute bollox. PBF could go on a Hatton diet of burgers and chips and fight at Heavyweight if he really wanted to. This doesn't mean he would beat all the heavyweights just because he fights at the same weight as them. Your concept of P4P is totally incorrect and unfortunately a lot of other people don't understand it very well either. What you are effectively saying is that if PBF decides to campaign at 147, he should automatically be heralded as the king of the division because of his P4P ranking. This is absolute pants.

OK...


I do see where you guys are coming from but the way I see it is:

Floyd Mayweather has been at light-welter for over a year, for three world-level fights. He is now a light-welter, he is no longer a lightweight.

The P4P rankings were devised basically as a way of saying Ray Robinson was the business and could have beaten heavyweights. They give smaller guys a chance to match bigger ones in theory.

At light welter, we have a situation where there are two guys who are believed to be worth ranking in the top 10 at any weight. But because these guys are at the same weight, there is no need to 'scale' them for comparison purposes.

All rankings are to a greater or lesser extent judgement calls, so you have to make some decisions here. When Judah went up to welter, where did he go in the rankings? Top 5? Or below Keith from Barrow-in-Furness who trots out as an opponent in tea hall shows but has been at 10 and a half for 14 years? Of course, you rank him in his new division according to how good you think he is. This is based on his old career, on a P4P impression. Anyway, Mayweather's now a light-welter talking about moving to light-middle. I have no issues with ranking him in the division. Let's say that, prior to last weekend's caravan, that Hopkins decided he would now campaign at super-middle. Where would you have ranked him at 168? Is it any more right putting Mayweather above Tszyu in the 140 rankings than it is putting him above Hatton?

If you rank Mayweather as a light-welter and have him as the best in the world at any weight, how can he not be the best at his own weight? In the P4P rankings, the Ring is saying that in their opinion the best in the world is Floyd Mayweather. But at light-welter, they're saying that there is someone better. But these guys box at the same weight. This inconsistency floors me.

On the one hand, you have the ranking which rates these guys as if they were fighting in the same division. And on the other you have the rankings for the division in which both of these guys are fighting. Changing the order is illogical unless, and this is the one area I'll concede at the moment, the Ring is pushing their increasingly tarnished belts as someone in the editor's office noticed the potential in being seen as arbitors of fairness and correct judgement.

The P4P debate is a bit daft really. I mean, all this "if" Vitali and Floyd were the same weight at their peak etc, but they're not. Never could be. Waste of time. If Vitali were a light-welter he wouldn't fight anything like the same way he does as a heavy, and vice versa, so how can the comparison be made? I get sick of hearing about it all, why we can't just be satisfied with rating guys by respective division I don't know.

'pound for pound' is just a selling gimmick to help boost the popularity of non-heavyweights. I can't remember the last time I used the term outside this message board.

Coconut wrote:

johnswan1 wrote:
No disrespect Coconut but you are talking absolute bollox. PBF could go on a Hatton diet of burgers and chips and fight at Heavyweight if he really wanted to. This doesn't mean he would beat all the heavyweights just because he fights at the same weight as them. Your concept of P4P is totally incorrect and unfortunately a lot of other people don't understand it very well either. What you are effectively saying is that if PBF decides to campaign at 147, he should automatically be heralded as the king of the division because of his P4P ranking. This is absolute pants.

OK...


I do see where you guys are coming from but the way I see it is:

Floyd Mayweather has been at light-welter for over a year, for three world-level fights. He is now a light-welter, he is no longer a lightweight.

The P4P rankings were devised basically as a way of saying Ray Robinson was the business and could have beaten heavyweights. They give smaller guys a chance to match bigger ones in theory.

At light welter, we have a situation where there are two guys who are believed to be worth ranking in the top 10 at any weight. But because these guys are at the same weight, there is no need to 'scale' them for comparison purposes.

All rankings are to a greater or lesser extent judgement calls, so you have to make some decisions here. When Judah went up to welter, where did he go in the rankings? Top 5? Or below Keith from Barrow-in-Furness who trots out as an opponent in tea hall shows but has been at 10 and a half for 14 years? Of course, you rank him in his new division according to how good you think he is. This is based on his old career, on a P4P impression. Anyway, Mayweather's now a light-welter talking about moving to light-middle. I have no issues with ranking him in the division. Let's say that, prior to last weekend's caravan, that Hopkins decided he would now campaign at super-middle. Where would you have ranked him at 168? Is it any more right putting Mayweather above Tszyu in the 140 rankings than it is putting him above Hatton?

If you rank Mayweather as a light-welter and have him as the best in the world at any weight, how can he not be the best at his own weight? In the P4P rankings, the Ring is saying that in their opinion the best in the world is Floyd Mayweather. But at light-welter, they're saying that there is someone better. But these guys box at the same weight. This inconsistency floors me.

On the one hand, you have the ranking which rates these guys as if they were fighting in the same division. And on the other you have the rankings for the division in which both of these guys are fighting. Changing the order is illogical unless, and this is the one area I'll concede at the moment, the Ring is pushing their increasingly tarnished belts as someone in the editor's office noticed the potential in being seen as arbitors of fairness and correct judgement.

Firstly PBF did not have three "world level" fights at Light Welterweight. The P4P ranking recognises achievements at different weights. If PBF went all the way up to Super Middleweight and got KO'd by Calzaghe after two other Super Middleweight fights, you think Calzaghe would be a better pound for pound fighter? Well that's incorrect. The fact that PBF has moved up from his natural weight to fight and have success against naturally bigger fighters is what gives him P4P recognition.

He's a light-welterweight. If he was a lightweight, the Ring would rank him as such. By calling him al light-welter they're comparing him with Hatton twice, one time saying one's better, the other time saying the other is.


Or is he just being ranked second in teh division on the back of a win over a limited Arturo Gatti who boxed almost exactly the wrong fight?

Just shows ratings are worth FART all..

Coconut wrote:He's a light-welterweight. If he was a lightweight, the Ring would rank him as such. By calling him al light-welter they're comparing him with Hatton twice, one time saying one's better, the other time saying the other is.


Or is he just being ranked second in teh division on the back of a win over a limited Arturo Gatti who boxed almost exactly the wrong fight?

Listen, I didn't want to insult you but you're obviously too fornicating thick to understand this. It's not rocket science. Read what I said above about the P4P being based on fighters achievements including what they may have achieved at weights above their natural weight. A highly skilled fighter stepping up for example from Welterweight to Middleweight and losing by the narrowest of margins would be most likely to increase his P4P ranking over the guy at Middleweight. This is a very simple things to understand and most of the arguments about P4P rankings are due to people confusing them with divisional rankings.

No, I'm not thick. And I don't really want to get into any kind of name-calling.

I see your point about the welterweight stepping up to middleweight but Mayweather is now a light-welterweight and we're comparing him to another light-welterweight. Just because he's been lighter in his career is an irrelevance by the time he's had three bona fide contests at 10 stone. You're making a judgement on the rest of his career when judging the P4P but not when you're judging how he'd do as light-welter, which is just odd. He didn't start boxing 3 fights ago. Again, if Hopkins said tomorrow that he was canning middle and moving up a division, where would you rank him at 168? What would you base that assessment on?

I think the key point here is that you're looking at natural weight. My point is that Mayweather is now a light-welterweight and I think that's what your issue is. He hasn't boxed lightweight for ages and isn't even thinking about going back down. The man is now at the weight, that is what he weighs, etc. What is his natural weight? Super-feather? The lad's a light-welter now, and he's not a small one.

Mayweather and Hatton are in the same division. Rankings are supposed to be on how people compare. P4P works on supposing the fighters were at the same weight. And in this instance they are. That's where the illogicality of it is. If you think Mayweather is better than Hatton then he should be ranked above him in the division in which they both operate.
I have no fan-axe to grind here, I'm just saying that in this P4P ranking shows the inanity of the whole exercise.


I understand that Hatton beat the previous incumbent but the logic of slotting him into a mythical ranking at 1 because of this is as logical as putting Antonio Tarver in at 1 in the P4P rankings after he beat Jones. All that happened on most lists was that Hopkins sidled up a place and Tarver slotted in somewhere low down the top 10.

Coconut wrote:No, I'm not thick. And I don't really want to get into any kind of name-calling.

I see your point about the welterweight stepping up to middleweight but Mayweather is now a light-welterweight and we're comparing him to another light-welterweight. Just because he's been lighter in his career is an irrelevance by the time he's had three bona fide contests at 10 stone. You're making a judgement on the rest of his career when judging the P4P but not when you're judging how he'd do as light-welter, which is just odd. He didn't start boxing 3 fights ago. Again, if Hopkins said tomorrow that he was canning middle and moving up a division, where would you rank him at 168? What would you base that assessment on?

I think the key point here is that you're looking at natural weight. My point is that Mayweather is now a light-welterweight and I think that's what your issue is. He hasn't boxed lightweight for ages and isn't even thinking about going back down. The man is now at the weight, that is what he weighs, etc. What is his natural weight? Super-feather? The lad's a light-welter now, and he's not a small one.

Mayweather and Hatton are in the same division. Rankings are supposed to be on how people compare. P4P works on supposing the fighters were at the same weight. And in this instance they are. That's where the illogicality of it is. If you think Mayweather is better than Hatton then he should be ranked above him in the division in which they both operate.
I have no fan-axe to grind here, I'm just saying that in this P4P ranking shows the inanity of the whole exercise.


I understand that Hatton beat the previous incumbent but the logic of slotting him into a mythical ranking at 1 because of this is as logical as putting Antonio Tarver in at 1 in the P4P rankings after he beat Jones. All that happened on most lists was that Hopkins sidled up a place and Tarver slotted in somewhere low down the top 10.

If Hopkins moved up to Super Middleweight, of course I wouldn't rank him as the top Super Middleweight, not even if he had three fights against guys inferior to the main man in the division. I would say yes, he deserves a shot at the title because of all he done at the weight below (and stepping up usually means becoming number one contender for the same organisations belt), but it's ridiculous to state that he should automatically dethrone the champion of the division. Mayweather beat Gatti who was not considered the best in the division. Hatton beat Tszyu who was the undisputed champion of the division. Hence Hatton is ranked higher than Mayweather in the division. Yes, Mayweather may be favourite to beat Hatton, but he stays at number two until he does that or until his quality of opposition exceeds that of Hatton AT THIS WEIGHT over a period of time.

You have it all wrong. You keep talking about him now being a Light Welterweight now and yes, that's where the divisional rankings come in. P4P is based on past and current achievements and looks favourably on fighters who achieved success at different weights. Hopkins could move to light heavy and look like a light heavyweight there but would be still fighting above his natural weight. Therefore to beat the champion at light heavyweight would be even more impressive, particularly against a guy who had always been a natural light heavyweight.