BoxRec

Who wins this battle of these extremely slick hard chinned fancy fleet footed boxers?

Why???

Gavilan gave the Sugar Man his toughest fight at welterweight, and then nearly won the middleweight title over Bobo Olson in Olson's prime. Ray Leonard would have had problems with the punches in bunches that Gavilan threw and with the pressure Gavilan applied. Plus, Gavilan also had some fights with Ike Williams so Leonard's hand speed would not be as much a factor.

Leonard had a lot of guts, and could win fights on desire alone, but against Gavilan he gives up skills, height, and reach. I like Gavilan by comfortable decision.

as long as the fight took place before leonard injured his eye, i would probly have to pick sugar ray in a very close decision, prolly a SD in 12, kid was a great fighter, but i think very highley of sugar ray i think maybe some people underestimate him sometimes.

..if he was on his game that night gavilan would win by a wide decison...because he was slicker, had more concrete in his chin and was easily as fleet of foot.....but his hands were even quicker. leonard wouldn't get knocked out unless by some chance he was leading in the score cards late in the fight.

I agree with that; Gavilan would beat him. Leonard couldn't keep away from him and would get worked ragged up close. In the infamous fight with Graham...the skill level and the conditioning of both fighters was something to see.

Rory McCloskey wrote:as long as the fight took place before leonard injured his eye, i would probly have to pick sugar ray in a very close decision, prolly a SD in 12, kid was a great fighter, but i think very highley of sugar ray i think maybe some people underestimate him sometimes.

People tend to underestimate him because they hate him, which I have no idea why.

Have to go with Sugar Ray. They were similar in some ways, but Leonard was just a little better. He was also a harder puncher, although probably not hard enough to stop Gavilan. It would almost for sure go the distance. With the exception of the first Duran fight, Leonard was a very smart fighter. He beat all different types of opponents.

For whatever reason people do seem to rate him as highly now as they did when he was fighting. For some reason people seem to forget that he beat Duran,Hagler,Hearns and Benitez. He had phenomenal hand speed, good defense, underrated power, a great chin, and a great will to win. The only fighter close to his talent today would be Floyd Mayweather. However Mayweather has yet to face a great fighter, so the jury is still out on him.

Gavilan was a great fighter. He did beat Ike Williams and Carmen Basilio. He was a little inconsistent though. He lost some fights to people that he should have beat. Against Leonard, he probably would have been at this best. His best just wasn't quite as good as Leonard, no shame in that. Leonard by a decision.

Two very closely talented and skilled fighters and anything could happen but I'd go with Sugar Ray.

Some informed, wise and kind souls have pleaded with me to dispense with the idea that there have been generational improvement in boxing methods. I've seen them shake their heads as if to say..."all in all Buzz is a pretty good guy but he just doesn't get this." Others indicate that I spew chunky foul smelling fertilizer regarding the subject

However be patient take your time and consider my brilliant logic.

Most other things being equal for these two I think Sugar Ray's luxury of learning from fighters that have gone before him would give him a clear advantage. The game is evolving at least somewhat I think.

It's hard to get on the other side of Jaclem on one of these but I'm getting brave.

..hey buzzy...your post got ME thinking. it was a quick knee jerk reaction. i think i'd still go with gavilan but forget the knockout by....leonard would take him the distrance.

actually, these two fighters alone are virtually a paradigm of the old vs. the new. my feet itch right now and i'm not in the mood to go into detail...but....a few points. gavilan was NOT considered a great fighter during his career....partly because he followed robinson...but also because he did drop a fight here and there. but he fought so damn many...and fought so often the percentages would bring some of that about. he was not noted as being a fanatic when it came to training...but he wasn't fussy about who he fought either...lightweights, welters and middles.

there's a myth that he gave robinson his toughest title fight. well, the sugarman did say he hit him with his hardest shots and it didn't even slow him down....but robinson won without too much trouble. when robinson fought for the vacant welter title, tommy bell...the only fighter who would meet him had him on the floor and robinson was in a little bit of trouble and had to come on strong and late to pull it out. that was probably his toughest title fight in that weight. the fast and flashy bernard docusen .....not a puncher....was ahead in the early rounds until the sugarman scored a knockdown late and closed strong to win.

sugar ray leonard.....excellent skills and a knockout puncher and a good chin. compared to the older fighters who fought several times a year...and here gavilan is an often cited example...just had more opportunities to show how they could deal with any style....knew all the tricks....were seasoned to the nth degree.
i guess my point is that with the shortened careers of modern fighters we don't get to see them in that situation. the older guys were tested under fire....again and again. the modern ones haven't been.

does it mean they couldn't if they had to? who knows. i tend to go with the boxers when the sport was in its heyday beause there were so many and it was so much harder to get to the top because of all the competition.

not saying the ray leonards couldn't if they had to...but we'll never know.

oh dear... a lot of wordage for a guy with itchy feet and i'm not going back to polish or edit. hope i made some sense anyway.

bottom line...gavilan by a decision...in a good competitve fight.

This is as much a no brainer as "who had the better bolo punch?"

The Keed by comfortable decision.

Different class.

No Brainer? Just call me the straw man.

Hey BoxBuzz no offence man, I didn't mean it like that. You're entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

..on the other hand, leonard didn't win 106 fights...go a total of 143 (most of the losses coming at the tail end of the keed's career) without getting knocked out and knocked off his feet only twice....go fifteen fast rounds with the greatest pound for pound guy ( digression...let us imagine what would have happened if the candy ass sugar ray went into the ring using that nick name against the real one. for an answer, look what happened to sugar costner, who offended the great one with his usage of the sugar in HIS name).....leonard didn't fight around ten times or more a year as a matter of course....DID have the financial support of a network based on his olympic success, rather than fighting his way out of poverty in cuba before coming to the united states and making his debut in nyc.....didn't engage in over the weight fights regularly between title defenses....well..let us stop here.

now, with THIS advocacy i pick gavilan overwhelming sugar ray the lesser and winning a decision easily, pretty much as he chose.

Hell, you could even say Gavilan beats him in the media exposure area too - Kid had 46 fights on national (terrestial) TV. That's 6 more than Leonard had actual FIGHTS. And this from someone with no Olympic and/or marketing foundations, but who - as Jaclem notes - fought from poverty to become a major TV star. Unbelievable. An amazing accomplishment.

Gavilan also drew crowds in the 10,000's in places as diverse as Canada and Cuba - whether it was uncomfortably hot or freezing cold, the public would splash out to see The Kid.

He broke all sorts of records to do with gate receipts and attendance numbers, and is up in the all time list for most appearances at the Garden: a place where Leonard only appeared once, that time Terry Norris drubbed him.

You could say boxing had migrated to Vegas in Leonard's time, but Caeser's had nothing on the Garden as a boxing venue. It looked like a dis-used aircraft hanger and you could see the back of the crowd too easily; MSG was more like a coliseum - the way a big-time boxing venue should be - and the black crowd gave an element of mystique to the atmosphere. Caeser's, and Vegas in general, was too well lit and in general a touch too glitzy.

Which is fitting I suppose because that's the clientele they were trying to attract at that point - all flash and no substance. Didn't have a clue what they were watching but because King and the 'powers that be' had doused it with glitter they were attracted. And all that glitters is gold, right? I mean, surely a bloated uninterested Duran entering with fireworks means he was a better opponent than that Robinson guy who came out with a white robe and towel?

Good thought Jaclem,

Well I'm thinking the opinions are diverse with basic unifying principles as the dividing line.

Old School:
More tested, grittier, not momma's boy's, unspoiled, real men. Haggard and bone weary they looked forward to the next hook, cross or jab to come there way. When hit with a hard shot they celebrated and gave back triple in return. They would fight and would look forward to and easily deliver a beating to 3, 6, 9 or more well rested men a night without complaint. They often would chew off and spit their own teeth out at their opponents to further intimidate both current and future competitors. They needed little rest themselves as they were hungry for the hunt and sound of the ringing bell was all they needed for nourishment.

These Neanderthals often walked 15 miles dragging their knuckles in the rain or the snow just to get to the events. It had been reported that during these long walks they would occasionally consume railroad track for it's iron content and perhaps a rabid animal for it's protein. This gave them the energy to do battle for hundreds of rounds until civilization demanded fights be limited to 15 rounds max.

They continued to flourish for a while until the game hit 12 championship rounds maximum. This so bored and disillusioned the breed that they became depressed, disinterested, dispassionate with life, eventually headed for solitary lives in caves and the blood line has now of course dissapeared.


New School:

Related to the old school but civilization has had an effect, successfully feminized to some degree they willingly accept limits on the amount of rounds.

Reading about the old days and hearing stories of the old generation they are studied warriors who plan their work and work their plan. More efficient and less willing to take a beating than the previous generation they prefer to only deliver punishment when possible. They also prefer to end the fight as soon as possible rather than enjoy the ride.

They work out scientifically using electronic and mechanical gadgets all designed to protect the predator for the actual event itself. They are fed foods that are carefully prepared for them by nutritionists. Some fighters have studied the old diets but have taken the active ingredients and melted it down into what is known as "fighters paste"

It is their claim that the intellectual approach combined with scientific and efficient training and improved nutrition has left them fresher for the event. They claim that an event in the current time period is actually a more thrilling ride due to the fact less rounds produce greater bursts of energy. The beatings are meant to be more deliberate and destructive and as a result the only way to guarantee survival is to keep the amount of rounds limited.

Trips to the event itself have changed somewhat, limousines with warm up equipment replace the long walks, and instead of simply walking into the ring some have resorted to a "fancy pants dance" an odd new ritual that seems to add nothing but perhaps detract nothing from the sport itself


They claim they have evolved the sport in ways which would have been too dangerous to be in the hands of the former champions of the sport.


Is that about it?

BoxBuzz wrote:Good thought Jaclem,

Well I'm thinking the opinions are diverse with basic unifying principles as the dividing line.

Old School:
More tested, grittier, not momma's boy's, unspoiled, real men. Haggard and bone weary they looked forward to the next hook, cross or jab to come there way. When hit with a hard shot they celebrated and gave back triple in return. They would fight and would look forward to and easily deliver a beating to 3, 6, 9 or more well rested men a night without complaint. They often would chew off and spit their own teeth out at their opponents to further intimidate both current and future competitors. They needed little rest themselves as they were hungry for the hunt and sound of the ringing bell was all they needed for nourishment.

These Neanderthals often walked 15 miles dragging their knuckles in the rain or the snow just to get to the events. It had been reported that during these long walks they would occasionally consume railroad track for it's iron content and perhaps a rabid animal for it's protein. This gave them the energy to do battle for hundreds of rounds until civilization demanded fights be limited to 15 rounds max.

They continued to flourish for a while until the game hit 12 championship rounds maximum. This so bored and disillusioned the breed that they became depressed, disinterested, dispassionate with life, eventually headed for solitary lives in caves and the blood line has now of course dissapeared.


New School:

Related to the old school but civilization has had an effect, successfully feminized to some degree they willingly accept limits on the amount of rounds.

Reading about the old days and hearing stories of the old generation they are studied warriors who plan their work and work their plan. More efficient and less willing to take a beating than the previous generation they prefer to only deliver punishment when possible. They also prefer to end the fight as soon as possible rather than enjoy the ride.

They work out scientifically using electronic and mechanical gadgets all designed to protect the predator for the actual event itself. They are fed foods that are carefully prepared for them by nutritionists. Some fighters have studied the old diets but have taken the active ingredients and melted it down into what is known as "fighters paste"

It is their claim that the intellectual approach combined with scientific and efficient training and improved nutrition has left them fresher for the event. They claim that an event in the current time period is actually a more thrilling ride due to the fact less rounds produce greater bursts of energy. The beatings are meant to be more deliberate and destructive and as a result the only way to guarantee survival is to keep the amount of rounds limited.

Trips to the event itself have changed somewhat, limousines with warm up equipment replace the long walks, and instead of simply walking into the ring some have resorted to a "fancy pants dance" an odd new ritual that seems to add nothing but perhaps detract nothing from the sport itself


They claim they have evolved the sport in ways which would have been too dangerous to be in the hands of the former champions of the sport.


Is that about it?

Hmmm..................

buzzy....first word, second to last sentence in "old school" .....you use "disinterested" when you mean uninterested. Disinterested means objective....as a judge is supposed to be a disinterested party.

common error... but maybe you'd like to edit your post and change it, to avoid further embarressment, although frankly it's doubtful that many people read that far.

jaclem....actually meant disinterested. It is more ambiguous and complex
they were not that simple minded. They could take it or leave it.

So lets just be a bit more disinter'sted and we will make less assumptions round these here parts.

And hey just a gull durned minute there Clemster, hold up and FREEEZZE Johnny! when I reread your post for the 17th time It slowly began to dawn on me thay your sayin my writin aint what it ought to be.

I'll have you know I am a proud graduit of the public school system. Yesir! And made it through many of those grades in one try!

So it's not me you speak ill of but the very heart of America itself if your sayin I can't mesmerize the audience with the witteryness and educatiory that was bestowed upon me during my tenure.

Now if I misread ya or otherwise took this the wrong way well then.... forget about it.

BoxBuzz, that was a pretty humorous look at training methods. I did get past the word disinterested, LOL.

I think the fighters can take shortcuts today, at the highest level, because of the money involved. There are still old school fighters around today. Guys like Emmanuel Augustus, Mickey Ward, and even Fernando Vargas would have fit in comfortably in the 50s. Can you imagine Augustus fighting Ike Williams in a MSG main event one week, and then 3 weeks later taking on Kid Gavilan and giving the crowd their money's worth every time?

I think another problem is the networks. They only support undefeated fighters and "paper" championship fights. Getting a loss today is like death in boxing, out of sight and out of mind. Back in the day, a loss against good competition would actually enhance your stature in the community, in the gym, and to real matchmakers who relied more on watching fights than buying records from FightFax or hearsay to match up fighters.

:)

Bump

Thanks for bringing this one back up Grimm, I never got a chance to comment on it.

Leonard wins this fight easily. Did everything Gavilan did a little better and hit alot harder. Its amazing to me how many people unde rrate Leonard.

I think the winner gets the title of 2nd best welterweight.

I go for Gavilan in this... he was an awesome fighter and had one of the best chins ever... I think he'd outwork Leonard and gain a decision...

Leonard by a clearcut decision. He was better in just about every conceivable category. Gavilan gave a good performance against Robinson, but don't forget that around the same time he also dropped a pair of decisions to clubfighter Doug Ratford.