BoxRec

Who would win this clash of Lightweight masters?... I lean towards Gans.... but its a very tough call.... Gans at his best perhaps that bit tougher...

I wonder how much Leonard's more mobile style would affect Gans, judging by what I've read of him. How the hell do you decide between an 86-5 and a 120-8-10? I'm thinking it would be, of course, a very tactical fight and not much fun unless you enjoy that sort of fight. I'll go with Leonard by marginal decision, while reserving the option of added reflectiojhn and changing my mind.

From what I've read of them Leonard could be hurt and Gans had a great punch... I see Gans being the slightly stronger fighter and this perhaps giving him the edge.

Gans was stopped several times but I've read that a majority of those were probably "business" so how can you tell how well he takes it? I agree with in you in thinking that Gans was probably stronger and the harder hitter...I wonder what effect Leonard's more mobile style would have on Gans and if it was in fact that great a departure from what he faced in other opponents? There was a tremendous change in boxing style in that decade between them.

tiredoldngrey wrote:Gans was stopped several times but I've read that a majority of those were probably "business" so how can you tell how well he takes it? I agree with in you in thinking that Gans was probably stronger and the harder hitter...I wonder what effect Leonard's more mobile style would have on Gans and if it was in fact that great a departure from what he faced in other opponents? There was a tremendous change in boxing style in that decade between them.

From what I've seen of gans he was very skillful... used the ring well and picked his punches and could ko someone with one punch... the fact that he went 40+ rounds with Batt Nelson shows his toughness and Gans was already suffering from tuberculosis by then.... so that means that Gans was a sick man for most of the time he was champ which makes his reign even more impressive. Gans had to lay down in many of his early bouts and had to hold back in many fights that he won so its possible that he was much better than he even showed. Its hard to pick clearly between both Leonard and Gans... I rate them alongside Duran as the best ever at that weight.

Have you seen the Feb 1989 issue of ring? That is how they rate the top three in the lightweight division. I think that Gans and Duran would be a good one as well, and the ability of Gans to sting Duran with something early may be the key for him. Looking at this article..How would you rate Armstrong and Arguello at this weight?

Armstrong would be right up there with Duran, Gans and Leonard... people tend to rate Armstrong mainly as a Welterweight because he had so many title fights at that weight but really he was never more than a Lightweight and would have held that title much longer if it hadn't been for the robbery against Ambers. I think Duran would have been too strong and skillful for Armstrong but Armstrong may well have been too strong for Leonard and Gans... I'd give Gans more of a chance.
I'd rate Armstrong as the best fighter ever pound for pound... if one fighter deserves that claim it must be him as his career was astonishing.
Arguello was a great fighter in his own right but I'd place him a touch behind Duran, Leonard, Gans and Armstrong... though he'd definately give them all hard fights. You can imagine Arguello doing well in 20 rounders and longer fights... such was his stamina and ability to pace himself in a fight.

With Arguello, it seemed that fleet footed fighters troubled him which inclines me to believe that Leonard coud do what Vilomar Fernandez did; I agree that Duran is just a bit more than Arguello and I think he too would win a decision or perhaps late tko ala Pryor. I think that he matches up best, style-wise, with Armstrong. That fight would be his best shot at a win, perhaps late Tko probably UD if Arguello wins . He just fought that style so well.

Some good discussion here, silkov and tiredoldngrey (not too flattering a username), and I feel like I'm crashing this 2-poster debate.

I would favor Joe Gans in a fight with Benny Leonard, mostly because Joe Gans could fight in a number of styles, boxing or slugging, while Leonard was mostly a boxer. I don't think any of the available footage shows how good Gans really was. The tuberculosis, as mentioned before, took control of him before the Nelson fights not to mention that he had to starve himself down to 133 ringside which he had a lot of difficulty doing. Fighting at 135 and weigh-ins on the day of the fight rather than ringside with those few extra pounds would have made a big difference in terms of his strength and stamina. The way he fought while sapped was great in itself. Leonard could be hit and it took guts and guile for him to survive a knockdown by Richie Mitchell and some hard punches by Tendler. Leonard is the better boxer in the ring and savvier, but I think Gans's power and relentless pursuit would win him the fight, a decision over 15 rounds or an eventual KO if going 45 rounds.

If I had to rate the lightweights, here's my Top 5:
1 Gans
2 Duran
3 Leonard
4 Ike Williams
5 Carlos Ortiz

:)

dnahar32 wrote:Some good discussion here, silkov and tiredoldngrey (not too flattering a username), and I feel like I'm crashing this 2-poster debate.

I would favor Joe Gans in a fight with Benny Leonard, mostly because Joe Gans could fight in a number of styles, boxing or slugging, while Leonard was mostly a boxer. I don't think any of the available footage shows how good Gans really was. The tuberculosis, as mentioned before, took control of him before the Nelson fights not to mention that he had to starve himself down to 133 ringside which he had a lot of difficulty doing. Fighting at 135 and weigh-ins on the day of the fight rather than ringside with those few extra pounds would have made a big difference in terms of his strength and stamina. The way he fought while sapped was great in itself. Leonard could be hit and it took guts and guile for him to survive a knockdown by Richie Mitchell and some hard punches by Tendler. Leonard is the better boxer in the ring and savvier, but I think Gans's power and relentless pursuit would win him the fight, a decision over 15 rounds or an eventual KO if going 45 rounds.

If I had to rate the lightweights, here's my Top 5:
1 Gans
2 Duran
3 Leonard
4 Ike Williams
5 Carlos Ortiz

:)

I'd agree with what you say about Gans... don't think I'd rate Williams and Ortiz so high though, great boxers but I'd put Armstrong ahead of them for sure.....

I love Henry Armstrong, he's my #2 P4P fighter, but at lightweight I would put Ike Williams and Carlos Ortiz over him (Armstrong's 6th if I went further) for several reasons:

1) Both Ike Williams and Carlos Ortiz had sustained success at lightweight over a number of years. Ike was champ almost 6 years and Ortiz was a champ for about 6 years as well. Armstrong was only a lightweight for about a year and a half, including several welterweight title fights where he was at or under the limit. Granted, wins over Ross, Ambers, and Roderick (gotta add the notable British challenger in there, LOL) are nothing to sneeze at, but in the 11 years he was rated as a Ring contender, only one year was at lightweight. Most of his defenses came around 140, and many of the fighters were unranked welters or lightweights, and not against premier lightweights looking to move up.

2) I truly believe that Henry Armstrong was a better welterweight than lightweight because of his style. His style was swarming, with a hurricane of punches thrown and reliance on stamina more than punching power. It was much easier for him to tire out a 145lb than a 135 lb. That's why he won so many fights at the end of his career even past his prime at welterweight. The fact that he could do it at that point of his career was remarkable in itself, and opponents definitely could not keep up. But at lightweight, it was harder to tire out opponents and the punch outputs were less lopsided in Armstrong's favor.

3) I think you're underrating Williams and Ortiz. Ike Williams had some excellent fights with Kid Gavilan that drew huge crowds to MSG. The first fight could have gone either way in terms of the scorecards and Williams only weighed 136. He was a big lightweight at 5-9 and had natural height and reach advantages on other lightweights. He took out guys like Beau Jack and Bob Montgomery who were fierce fighters. Enrique Bolanos was another excellent challenger and he destroyed him.

Carlos Ortiz fought and beat all styles of fighters. He beat the knockout artists (Battling Torres), smooth boxers like Duilio Loi and Kenny Lane, the tall jabber in Laguna, and the pressure fighter in Flash Elorde. He fought a who's who of lightweights and even earned a draw against Locche in Argentina (pretty much a win in my book) at 138. He even fought featherweights moving up (Sugar Ramos) who were busier fighters than he was and beat them.

Armstrong in his only two lightweight title fights fought the same fighter twice and lost 4 rounds to fouls in the first bout which he won and 5 rounds to fouls in the second bout. Without slow-motion cameras and complete footage, it would be impossible to determine how fair the low blow charges actually were but he was lucky not to be DQ'd and a smarter fighter would have adjusted to the warnings. And if they were legit low blows, they would have hurt Ambers who didn't get 5 minutes like fighters do now to recuperate.

Well, I laid out my case and while I cannot necessarily change your mind, hopefully the facts will show that Armstrong is not definitely better than either Williams or Ortiz but at a similar level.

I find myself agreeing with dnahar32's top five; I watched a couple Carlos Ortiz fight last night and he was very sharp and Ike Williams from what I've seen was also a complete boxer; unfortunately he fought under a cloud so its hard to say how many times, if, in fact, any, he had to 'not win' on purpose. The troubles Armstrong had with Ambers make me wonder how he would do against these other top lightweights. I wish he had concentrated more of his career at 135.