BoxRec

Did anyone see this today?

The family of Ali was pretty insistent today that Ali suffers from Parkinson's not particularly related to his years in the ring. (Not a very credible source granted.) However all the official information I am aware of, what I would consider to be better investigators would generally back this up.

I know some here would say it was all about how much punishment he took in the ring and I don't intend to start this discussion again, just to mention that this is the more "official" version of his current dilemna.

I am a head injury specialist and it is my opinion that it is a mix of both.
( SS don't nuke me for this again I know you can argue this either way.)

I'll just go on record once again that I do not see where he took enough punishment to account for all of this. On the other hand I am fully aware that it could be due to one perfect shot as well. We will never really know you have to go with your gut somewhat on this one.

When I review the films Joe Frazier is an example of someone who's issues are related purely to taking punishment. In my estimation he took far more than did Ali and yet he is far less affected.

But another undeterminable factor is each individual's ability to absorb punishment. We are all different in that way.

I've got nothing to base what I am saying other than my gut feeling and a little knowledge on the subject. It's likely the truth will remain "out there"
on this one.

Where did you hear/read this?. Its a long running argument about how Ali got parkingsons. Many people when have never been near a boxing ring have got Parkinsons... Micheal J Fox... is a very well known one but there are ofcourse many others and many other who have got it while still young as Ali did. But then the beatings Ali took in his later fights certainly didn't help matters and may have caused brain damage which resulted in Parkinsons.
But I have also a while ago heard the theory that Parkinsons could be caused by chemical poisoning and Ali's father was a sign painter and there were always paints hanging around the house where he grew up so if this theory is correct Ali's system may have been poinsoned by these chemicals and this has caused the parkinsons. Chemical poisoning is a cause that is still being looked into in the study of parkinsons... the truth is doctors still don't knwo for sure why anyone gets it.

Well there is full fledged Parkinson's, like what Michael Fox and Janet Reno have and then there is Parkinson's Syndrome which mimics it to some degree. Ali seems to have the stereotypical version of genuine Parkinsons. He has certain symptoms that are not in alignment with typical boxing injuries. Partly why I discount the beatings in the ring as the reason for his current state. And honestly the beatings he took are just not on the level with some of his peers who show far less symptoms.

They made a case today on tv that Ali falls in the genuine Parkinsons camp which quite frankly does not come from boxing type head injury. It is organic in nature. I happen to think he has a bit of both. It would be reasonable based on his chosen profession.

How much is which no one can know. Not even the great and wise Science Guy himself.

BoxBuzz, since you have some knowledge of this, I was wondering if you heard about the medication Ali was given before the Holmes fight that completely sapped him of his energy and strength. Granted, Ali was over the hill and all but many people who genuinely care for Ali remarked in Hauser's book that Ali didn't look the same after this. What was the medication he took and could this have contributed to the Parkinson's?

dnahar32 wrote:BoxBuzz, since you have some knowledge of this, I was wondering if you heard about the medication Ali was given before the Holmes fight that completely sapped him of his energy and strength. Granted, Ali was over the hill and all but many people who genuinely care for Ali remarked in Hauser's book that Ali didn't look the same after this. What was the medication he took and could this have contributed to the Parkinson's?

A 'doctor' pescribed Ali medication for a thyroid disorder (I'm not sure whether it was supposed to be over active or underactive!) and this caused him to lose loads of weight and by fight time he could barely walk or hold his arms up.
Certainly the beating Ali took against Holmes did his health no favours and there was a marked deterioration in him after this fight.

Thyroid medications would not contribute to Parkinsons, however he shouldnt have been fighting at that time in my opinion. And silkov is right, the beating he took as a result of his slower reflexes due to age and the medication did him no good. This night may well have contributed to his symptoms but not as a direct result of medication. But as a result of Larry's bad intentions. To me that night was the worst night he endured.

I always thought the "thyroid" condition was a cooked up facade to give Ali a chance to lose weight artificially. I think Ali would have rather taken a beating than look bad for his public. Maybe i overestimate his ego...but is that really possible?

IMO he knew he was long odds with Holmes at that point in his career.

BoxBuzz wrote:Thyroid medications would not contribute to Parkinsons, however he shouldnt have been fighting at that time in my opinion. And silkov is right, the beating he took as a result of his slower reflexes due to age and the medication did him no good. This night may well have contributed to his symptoms but not as a direct result of medication. But as a result of Larry's bad intentions. To me that night was the worst night he endured.

I always thought the "thyroid" condition was a cooked up facade to give Ali a chance to lose weight artificially. I think Ali would have rather taken a beating than look bad for his public. Maybe i overestimate his ego...but is that really possible?

IMO he knew he was long odds with Holmes at that point in his career.

As I understand it Ali had weight troubles for a long time, water retentione etc and this doctor told him that his weight problems were related to a thyroid disorder. The medication Ali was then 'pescribed' by this 'doctor' had such an effect on Ali that the weight fell off him which seemed good for a time but he then began to feel exhasted and in the weeks leading up to the fight hardly had the energy to run. On the night of the fight Ali said he barely had the energy to raise his arms. The beating Ali took from Holmes was a direct result of the effects of the medication he had been given. If you watch Ali vs Berbick in his last fight you'll see that Ali is a much better fighter in this bout... while still obviously shot he is still able to move round the ring a bit and makes the fight fairly competitive for the first 5 or 6 rounds.
I'm not saying Ali would have beaten Holmes in their fight had he not been given that stuff but he certainly would have put up a better fight and not have taken that horrible beating... he was little more than a punch bag that night and really was lucky to get out of that fight alive... had it been allowed to go on it might have been a different story because Ali's chin and heart would never have allowed him to be koed.

BoxBuzz wrote:
When I review the films Joe Frazier is an example of someone who's issues are related purely to taking punishment. In my estimation he took far more than did Ali and yet he is far less affected.

Ali took a lot of punishment after the layoff...before, he was a fighter who relied on speed and reflexes to be successful...after, the speed and refelexes were dramatically affected...the Bonavena fight (right before Frazier) showed me that Ali was not going to be the same fighter he was 4 years earlier...he was now getting hit substantially harder and more often by guys like Bonavena, who definitely wouldn't have hit him with head shots as 'flush' (if at all) a few years earlier...

...if Ali's only hard fights were the three against Frazier...he wouldn't have the medical problems he has today...

...much like you would evaluate a fighter's 'body of work' to evaluate his career, you should evaluate the 'total punishment received' to make an educated guess on the possible effects of that punishment...

...It wasn't just Frazier...Norton hit him hard enough to break bones...Foreman hit him flush (repeatedly) while he layed against the ropes, Shavers hit him so hard...I thought my stereo (hooked up to the TV) might blow a speaker...and there many other examples...Holmes, Berbick, etc.

...he fought the best the division had to offer, at a time when the division was loaded with talent...and at the same time, he was suffering from diminished skills (slowing of reflexes, less stamina, etc.)...

Anybody can believe what they want...but I think those who believe Ali's medical condition is unrelated to boxing are in denial, for whatever reason...If an NFL player has 2 or 3 concussions, they start advising him about the consequences of receiving any more...How many concussions did Ali suffer in the ring?

What other older fighter would win fights by repeatedly resting against the ropes while his opponents flailed away and frequently landing flush...

Early in his career, when he was actually fast, Ali prided himself on not getting hit (hard)...after the comeback, he went through a transition...he realised he didn't have the stamina to fight with the foot movement of old without tiring very quickly...he realised that if he took 3 steps to his opponents one, he'd be in trouble against the Fraziers, Foremans, Nortons, etc. He now had to take some shots to be successful...and he took a ton of them...I always thought that the Shavers fight proved to me that Ali was now fighting past the point of health safety...it was probably a couple years earlier, but it was really obvious in the Shavers fight...

A once great fighter was getting hit way too often...and unfortunately, the story just keeps repeating with the following generations of fighters (Holyfield as an example)...

Sweet Scientist wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:
When I review the films Joe Frazier is an example of someone who's issues are related purely to taking punishment. In my estimation he took far more than did Ali and yet he is far less affected.

Ali took a lot of punishment after the layoff...before, he was a fighter who relied on speed and reflexes to be successful...after, the speed and refelexes were dramatically affected...the Bonavena fight (right before Frazier) showed me that Ali was not going to be the same fighter he was 4 years earlier...he was now getting hit substantially harder and more often by guys like Bonavena, who definitely wouldn't have hit him with head shots as 'flush' (if at all) a few years earlier...

...if Ali's only hard fights were the three against Frazier...he wouldn't have the medical problems he has today...

...much like you would evaluate a fighter's 'body of work' to evaluate his career, you should evaluate the 'total punishment received' to make an educated guess on the possible effects of that punishment...

...It wasn't just Frazier...Norton hit him hard enough to break bones...Foreman hit him flush (repeatedly) while he layed against the ropes, Shavers hit him so hard...I thought my stereo (hooked up to the TV) might blow a speaker...and there many other examples...Holmes, Berbick, etc.

...he fought the best the division had to offer, at a time when the division was loaded with talent...and at the same time, he was suffering from diminished skills (slowing of reflexes, less stamina, etc.)...

Anybody can believe what they want...but I think those who believe Ali's medical condition is unrelated to boxing are in denial, for whatever reason...If an NFL player has 2 or 3 concussions, they start advising him about the consequences of receiving any more...How many concussions did Ali suffer in the ring?

What other older fighter would win fights by repeatedly resting against the ropes while his opponents flailed away and frequently landing flush...

Early in his career, when he was actually fast, Ali prided himself on not getting hit (hard)...after the comeback, he went through a transition...he realised he didn't have the stamina to fight with the foot movement of old without tiring very quickly...he realised that if he took 3 steps to his opponents one, he'd be in trouble against the Fraziers, Foremans, Nortons, etc. He now had to take some shots to be successful...and he took a ton of them...I always thought that the Shavers fight proved to me that Ali was now fighting past the point of health safety...it was probably a couple years earlier, but it was really obvious in the Shavers fight...

A once great fighter was getting hit way too often...and unfortunately, the story just keeps repeating with the following generations of fighters (Holyfield as an example)...

One thing to remember is that Ali had 24 more fights than Frazier and in those fights he fought Liston, Foreman, Lyle, Norton, Bonavena, Shavers, Chuvalo... he was champion during a golden period for the division when the talent was I think the strongest it had ever been or has ever been since (what an understatement!) and ironically Ali faced probably his most dangerous opposition when he himself was past his best... had it been the Ali of 67 facing the Nortons and Fraziers then those fights would have been much less punishing for Ali without a doubt.
In a way its like fate has made Ali pay a price for his glory. The fights he had in the 70s sealed his legend but also took a toll.
I don't feel sorry for Ali though because he acheived so much in his life and tasted such great highs and I beleive what his biographer says that he has no regrets.

Yep factoring all that in I'm still not persueded that it is 100% boxing related because the symptoms are so atypical. However with that said I am convinced it is probably a 50/50 proposition.

If he did not have organic Parkinsons he would be a different person but not his old self, and if he did not have boxing as a carreer he would be a different person but not his old self.

Sorting out which is which is anybody's guess.

BoxBuzz wrote:Yep factoring all that in I'm still not persueded that it is 100% boxing related because the symptoms are so atypical. However with that said I am convinced it is probably a 50/50 proposition.

If he did not have organic Parkinsons he would be a different person but not his old self, and if he did not have boxing as a carreer he would be a different person but not his old self.

Sorting out which is which is anybody's guess.

There are other boxers with Parkinsons... I believe Freddie Roach has it though its not as advanced as Ali's. The slurring speech Ali has showed increasingly since the mid-70s is a symptom shown by quite a few fighter who do not seem to have Parkinsons.... Holifield, Hearns, Terry Norris, Meldrick Taylor.... cause Hearns has started fighting again recently for christssake which means anything could happen to him unfortunately.

Also, It may be quite impossible to prove anything regarding a Parkinson's case...You can't prove if someone had Alzheimer's without an autopsy...but doctors can make a reasonably good educated guess...

Many years ago, I worked in a hospital as a summer employee while going to school...I found out first hand that there's a hell of a lot of 'educated guessing' that goes on in the medical field...very few things are truely 'cut and dry'...not everyone reacts the same way to the same thing, etc.

...but I know one thing...if you smoked cigarettes, and you get lung cancer...the doctors will say it was the cigarettes...

...if you were a boxer...and you have Parkinson's Syndrome...the doctors will say it was the boxing...

...you can't 'prove' either one...but if the evidence doesn't lead you to that conclusion...you should re-evaluate and think about it...the odds are that the doctors are correct...

You can't 'prove' everything...Jerry Quarry suffered from and died young due to 'pugilistic dementia'...you can't really prove it...but does anyone really doubt it? What is 'pugilistic dementia'? Really, it could be the same thing as being in a car wreck and hitting your head...it just took longer if it came from boxing...Who's to say that Ali has a lesser version of what Quarry had?...

...There have been any number of former boxers that suffered from the after effects of getting hit too many times...

...When I was young, there was an older, somewhat frail gentleman, that used to walk up and down the street 'preaching' about the gosple...he didn't make much sense when he spoke...my dad told me that he was Jackie Wilson, former featherweight champion of the world...and that he took 'too many punches'...called it 'punch drunk' back then...I learned early that boxing had a 'dark side'...nobody questioned what happened to Jackie...everybody knew...

Sweet Scientist wrote:Also, It may be quite impossible to prove anything regarding a Parkinson's case...You can't prove if someone had Alzheimer's without an autopsy...but doctors can make a reasonably good educated guess...

Many years ago, I worked in a hospital as a summer employee while going to school...I found out first hand that there's a hell of a lot of 'educated guessing' that goes on in the medical field...very few things are truely 'cut and dry'...not everyone reacts the same way to the same thing, etc.

...but I know one thing...if you smoked cigarettes, and you get lung cancer...the doctors will say it was the cigarettes...

...if you were a boxer...and you have Parkinson's Syndrome...the doctors will say it was the boxing...

...you can't 'prove' either one...but if the evidence doesn't lead you to that conclusion...you should re-evaluate and think about it...the odds are that the doctors are correct...

You can't 'prove' everything...Jerry Quarry suffered from and died young due to 'pugilistic dementia'...you can't really prove it...but does anyone really doubt it? What is 'pugilistic dementia'? Really, it could be the same thing as being in a car wreck and hitting your head...it just took longer if it came from boxing...Who's to say that Ali has a lesser version of what Quarry had?...

...There have been any number of former boxers that suffered from the after effects of getting hit too many times...

...When I was young, there was an older, somewhat frail gentleman, that used to walk up and down the street 'preaching' about the gosple...he didn't make much sense when he spoke...my dad told me that he was Jackie Wilson, former featherweight champion of the world...and that he took 'too many punches'...called it 'punch drunk' back then...I learned early that boxing had a 'dark side'...nobody questioned what happened to Jackie...everybody knew...

One of the common things with fighters who seem to leave boxing less than a 100% is that usually they have fought on too long and way past their best. Looking at wilsons record I saw that he lost 16 of his last 18 fights... 4 by ko... which speaks for itself really.
The smart guys that get out at the right time seem to be more or less ok... Jim Watt, Barry Mcguigan, Henry Cooper, Alan Minter..... for instance. If fighters were 'retired' quicker when signs of deterioration first become aparent then less fighters would suffer in their retirements.
Instead you see the likes of Bowe and Hearns being allowed to continue fighting and so it carries on...

Ok this can go on forever, there are atypical symptoms Ali has which have my attention. The shaking and slow and certain stylized deliberate body movements just being two. I'ts subtle stuff and I could be reading it wrong. But I'm paid not to make too many mistakes on this. I hope I deliver for most folks.

Alzheimers can not be accurately diagnosed until death but Organic Parkinsons can. Which I think his family claims is part of his diagnostic record, but I have seen no proof of this.

Parkinsons Syndrome is unrelated to Parkinson disease in every way except overt symptoms. I am postulating that Ali has both.

You are so right about the educated guessing and I have mine and you have yours. Am I being drawn to my conclusion based on my admiration for Ali? Who knows. I actually think I'm basing my thoughts on the empirical evidence before me and I seem to be in agreement with his family on this and a portion of the medical community. Is this group of people all being drawn to the wrong conclusion because we care about him? Who knows.

I just think in Ali's case appears unique. It does not appear to me be a simple case of Punch Drunk.

He did not get knocked out 20 times. In fact he was never knocked out. Never! That's a conversation all on its own. But then we get around to circular reasoning again and can use that fact against my arguement by saying it would have been better if he would have been knocked out on a few occasions.

I'm just one opinion in the big pool of thought.

I know it you know it and Bob Dole knows it.

BoxBuzz wrote:Ok this can go on forever, there are atypical symptoms Ali has which have my attention. The shaking and slow and certain stylized deliberate body movements just being two. I'ts subtle stuff and I could be reading it wrong. But I'm paid not to make too many mistakes on this. I hope I deliver for most folks.

Alzheimers can not be accurately diagnosed until death but Organic Parkinsons can. Which I think his family claims is part of his diagnostic record, but I have seen no proof of this.

Parkinsons Syndrome is unrelated to Parkinson disease in every way except overt symptoms. I am postulating that Ali has both.

You are so right about the educated guessing and I have mine and you have yours. Am I being drawn to my conclusion based on my admiration for Ali? Who knows. I actually think I'm basing my thoughts on the empirical evidence before me and I seem to be in agreement with his family on this and a portion of the medical community. Is this group of people all being drawn to the wrong conclusion because we care about him? Who knows.

I just think in Ali's case appears unique. It does not appear to me be a simple case of Punch Drunk.

He did not get knocked out 20 times. In fact he was never knocked out. Never! That's a conversation all on its own. But then we get around to circular reasoning again and can use that fact against my arguement by saying it would have been better if he would have been knocked out on a few occasions.

I'm just one opinion in the big pool of thought.

I know it you know it and Bob Dole knows it.

I don't see Ali as being 'punch drunk' as in his intelligence being affected like Jerry Quarrys was... as far as I know he hasn't got dementia. But then having said that he is probably at a high risk of developing it eventually.

BoxBuzz wrote:Ok this can go on forever, there are atypical symptoms Ali has which have my attention. The shaking and slow and certain stylized deliberate body movements just being two.

Parkinsons Syndrome is unrelated to Parkinson disease in every way except overt symptoms.

Everybody is different...My dad died of 'organic' Parkinson's last January...his hands never shook...they just stopped working completely, no grip, no strength...couldn't sign his name...also, he couldn't speak or swallow...it's a real ugly thing to have...but the symptoms aren't always 'classic'...

Whatever Ali has...he may or may not have the 'classic' symptoms...

Everybody is different...that's what the doctors told me when I asked them, 'how does my dad have Parkinson's with out the hand tremors?'...

...head trauma (in Ali's case) can surely manifest itself in a number of different ways as well...

But...I suppose, in the end, it doesn't really matter what caused Ali's current medical condition...he's stuck with it and it isn't going away...and current and future generations of fighters would be wise consider Ali's case the split second they notice diminishing skills...

I won't disagree with that SS. As long as it is a "self" evaluation.