BoxRec

Williams was a top contender in the late 50s and early 60s who never got a shot at Patterson. What would have happened if he had?.... I see a Williams win in about 1 or 2 rounds!....

Williams wins early. He KO's Patterson in 4.

Williams was not too far short of Liston in power and faster. Not as durable though. I think Floyd may have avoided him for that reason, Floyd seemed to learn how to hang with this type later in his career.

He has a chance if he can wear him out. But I think Floyd's chin lets him down again. I find myself rarely able to appreciate Floyd's abilities so I may be overly bias. Curse him for not letting Archie try out the HW belt.

BoxBuzz wrote:Williams was not too far short of Liston in power and faster. Not as durable though. I think Floyd may have avoided him for that reason, Floyd seemed to learn how to hang with this type later in his career.

He has a chance if he can wear him out. But I think Floyd's chin lets him down again. I find myself rarely able to appreciate Floyd's abilities so I may be overly bias. Curse him for not letting Archie try out the HW belt.

I actually think Patterson was a better fighter after his title reign... his wins over Quarry, Bonavena and Chuvalo are impressive though they were all close fights. Williams had the power and the speed to beat him though... especially in his title days...

Williams was one unlucky man; both Liston and Ali had their career best performances against him. Patterson wouldn't last with him so I agree with the early KO predictions

This I think depends on Floyd entirely. I always thought he was much better, when he used the ring, his jab and his head. Unfortunately he had
a tendency to swap leather with much bigger men, sometimes to his detriment. He was far from one dimensional. He could punch inside with the best of them. But, he often chose to stay inside, instead of rattling off those wicked combinations and getting out of harms way. He could box &
move quite well when he chose to. I liked the way he looked against Chuvalo & London. As he got older he became smarter. I guess his failings against Liston would do that. Unfortunately as he got older, he also
declined somewhat in speed & stamina, but never radically because he was always in such superb conditon. Machen, or Folley would never have beaten him. Valdes either. He had such great heart. Williams would have a punchers chance early, where Floyd was most vulnerable. Williams had a lot of early ko's in his career, but the best he ever beat was Terrell who he also lost to ,and had a draw with Machen. I like Floyd, he was the better fighter, but box Floyd, box.

patterson unanimous decision

Williams by TKO

A much better all-around fighter then Ingo Johansson . . .

Patterson could hang tough though for awhile . . .

Reguarding name common opponets.

Patterson beat Machen & Chuvalo, Williams didn't.

dempseyfire.

You underestimate Johansson. Up until he lost the championship, he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. He beat Erskine, Cooper. Machen & Patterson easily on his way up. Dundee said Erskine would have been a world beater if he was bigger.
Once he lost the title, he never had the same drive again. This has happened to many great fighters.
Who would win between the two ? Both could bang, but the swede was faster & a better boxer. It would depend on who landed first. I like the Swede for the reasons I've mentioned.

I'm draggin' another one up from the basement.

Interested in opinions here. Seems amazing that in 05 it was unanimous for the Big Cat.

Anyone want to make the case for Floyd in 2013?

silkov wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Williams was not too far short of Liston in power and faster. Not as durable though. I think Floyd may have avoided him for that reason, Floyd seemed to learn how to hang with this type later in his career.

He has a chance if he can wear him out. But I think Floyd's chin lets him down again. I find myself rarely able to appreciate Floyd's abilities so I may be overly bias. Curse him for not letting Archie try out the HW belt.

I actually think Patterson was a better fighter after his title reign... his wins over Quarry, Bonavena and Chuvalo are impressive though they were all close fights. Williams had the power and the speed to beat him though... especially in his title days...

Patterson did not have an official win over Quarry, though I think he should have gotten the decision in their second fight.

Williams kayos Floyd if they had fought in that '59-'60 era.

tiredoldngrey wrote:Williams was one unlucky man; both Liston and Ali had their career best performances against him.

Even 8 years later, this is still worth a

Ali over Williams has to be the most overrated performance in ring history.

Saad, Ali was poetry in motion on this occasion, so his performance remains stellar.

Yep, you can make the case that Williams was very damaged, but take a look at his other fights in and around this time, and it's hard to recognize his lameness. Which by all rights should be demonstrable and easily assessed.

However against Ali as good as he was during this period, it may well have a bit to do with a compromised cat, vs a stellar Ali and the dynamic ratio of such a show. But a stellar Ali on that day is not deniable. A broken cat? Well as much as the record would indicate that SHOULD have been the case, I have seen little to prove it WAS the case.

All that said, your statement may well be true. It's just not assuredly so.

BoxBuzz wrote:Saad, Ali was poetry in motion on this occasion, so his performance remains stellar.

Yep, you can make the case that Williams was very damaged, but take a look at his other fights in and around this time, and it's hard to recognize his lameness. Which by all rights should be demonstrable and easily assessed.

However against Ali as good as he was during this period, it may well have a bit to do with a compromised cat, vs a stellar Ali and the dynamic ratio of such a show. But a stellar Ali on that day is not deniable. A broken cat? Well as much as the record would indicate that SHOULD have been the case, I have seen little prove it WAS the case.

All that said, your statement may well be true. It's just not assuredly so.

It's an insult to Ali to call his best performance a workout on a man littered with bullets. The Spinks rematch is more impressive.

Saad, it is my work on a daily basis to assist those who have been compromised by life.

Cleveland, regardless of how emotional the story, does not display an over abundance of the critical elements of compromise.

I have seen many many examples of a simple fall ending a persons usefulness, and the same of an incident that should have killed 5 men, taking very little toll on a persons performance.

It's not the compelling and dramatic nature of the story, it's intensity, or other components. It's the actual damage to tissue, bone, cartilage, vascular system and nerves.

I also know how hard what I'm saying may be to digest. However one thing we can both agree on, it certainly did Williams no good.

But just how bad it was, is harder to be certain of. But for some it will be enough to discount this fight as anything more than a walk in the park, and an exploitation of Cleveland's earlier reputation.

I don't blame anyone for framing it just the way you have, however the details of just what it meant for Cleveland are hard to know. And in his other fights during his rehab period, he seemed to demonstrate what some may surmise to be a superhuman recover experience. It may be that it simply did not do the damage one would expect from such an experience.

yancey wrote:

silkov wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Williams was not too far short of Liston in power and faster. Not as durable though. I think Floyd may have avoided him for that reason, Floyd seemed to learn how to hang with this type later in his career.

He has a chance if he can wear him out. But I think Floyd's chin lets him down again. I find myself rarely able to appreciate Floyd's abilities so I may be overly bias. Curse him for not letting Archie try out the HW belt.

I actually think Patterson was a better fighter after his title reign... his wins over Quarry, Bonavena and Chuvalo are impressive though they were all close fights. Williams had the power and the speed to beat him though... especially in his title days...

Patterson did not have an official win over Quarry, though I think he should have gotten the decision in their second fight.

Buzz, on Quarry's condition, I'm not a medical expert but it's clear that his performances took a steep drop-off post-shooting from before. I also thought he looked much slower vs Todd Herring (the one post-shooting, pre-Ali fight of his on film) than he did prior to the Texas incident.

Williams kayos Floyd if they had fought in that '59-'60 era.

I'm pretty surprised at the above. Of their two fights, I always thought Floyd was a clear winner of their first fight draw, but that Quarry rightly took the 2nd fight on points.

Yancey, (Assuming you meant Williams and not Quarry) I may need to go back and look at that fight, I'm in a position to be better in my assessment these days. But from memory only, I can not recall seeing a CATastrophic devolution, but I do remember being impressed with how he had bounced back.

BoxBuzz wrote:Yancey, (Assuming you meant Williams and not Quarry) I may need to go back and look at that fight, I'm in a position to be better in my assessment these days. But from memory only, I can not recall seeing a CATastrophic devolution, but I do remember being impressed with how he had bounced back.

Buzz, the 2nd paragraph in the preceding post attributed to me (beginning with "Buzz" and ending with "Texas incident") are not my remarks.

I'm not sure how this happened, but if you can fix it and delete this post also it would be fine.

Williams KO's Patterson within 4 or 5 rounds.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

tiredoldngrey wrote:Williams was one unlucky man; both Liston and Ali had their career best performances against him.

Even 8 years later, this is still worth a

Ali over Williams has to be the most overrated performance in ring history.

Only by you.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

tiredoldngrey wrote:Williams was one unlucky man; both Liston and Ali had their career best performances against him.

Even 8 years later, this is still worth a

Ali over Williams has to be the most overrated performance in ring history.

Only by you.

Most people can figure out that just because Williams wasn't the best opponent in his career doesn't mean it could not have been Ali's best performance.

As for Williams-Patterson, that is a fight where almost anything could have happened. Both could punch but weren't that good defensively or had good chins. I'm guessing Patterson's superior speed and heart would have been given him an edge.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Most people can figure out that just because Williams wasn't the best opponent in his career doesn't mean it could not have been Ali's best performance.

That's quite a slight to Ali's career. Williams was shot. That was about as impressive as Holmes beating up Ali. Not quite that bad, but much closer to that than to Ali's best.

Williams was certainly not a great fighter. However he wasn't washed up either. This is nothing like Holmes beating an opponent who could hardly even throw a punch. That is an idiotic comparison.
Williams had won a few fights during his comeback since his layoff and had impressed people. Ring Magazine had Williams as their #3 contender before the fight.


Regardless, focusing on Williams is really missing the piont. Watch Ali. He showed phenomenal combinations, accurracy, footwork, speed and reflexes in that fight. You can see that simply by watching him. There are a few fights before that where he was close to that level. Perhaps he was close to that when he fought Folley, when he wasn't clowning around. After the layoff, he was never close to this level.