BoxRec

These are things I have heard and read over the years about former Middleweight Champion Marvelous Marvin Hagler.

Does anyone know if they are true or False/

(1) As a young Professional after a medical check-up it was discovered that Hagler had a much thicker skull than most men.

(2) As a novice professional he was dropped in a street fight when fellow professional Dornell Wigfall hit him over the head with a bottle. Hagler had to roll under a car to escape a second bottle attack.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=011439

(3) During training for the Ray Leonard fight Hagler was dropped, but not hurt by (I think) bobby Phillips.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=025198

I look forward to you comments fight fans.

I hope I'm not becoming senile, but I could swear I read that Ronnie Harris once broke Hagler's nose in a sparring session.

Seamus wrote:I hope I'm not becoming senile, but I could swear I read that Ronnie Harris once broke Hagler's nose in a sparring session.

Well I am sure the Hagler-Mugabi fight was delayed because Hagler broke his nose in sparring, but I have no idea who landed the shot.

Whoever it was it's certainly something to tell the grandkids about.

I seem to remember rumours about Hagler being hurt in sparring before the Leonard bout. His long layoff was due to persistant injuries... all signs that Hagler was in decline at the time of the fight....

silkov wrote:I seem to remember rumours about Hagler being hurt in sparring before the Leonard bout. His long layoff was due to persistant injuries... all signs that Hagler was in decline at the time of the fight....

And even with his decline I say Hagler won that fight.

I love the thicker skull idea. I never saw anyone take punches like Marvin

Ezzard wrote:I love the thicker skull idea. I never saw anyone take punches like Marvin

I was told (by a Hispanic man) that a Mexican TV channel did tests on JC Chavez and found a similar thing.

Ezzard wrote:I love the thicker skull idea. I never saw anyone take punches like Marvin

I certainly can believe that one!!!

You couldn't knock over Hagler with a Howitzer!!!!!

The story about Marvin and the street fight is legit. Marvin himself mentioned it in an interview I read years ago. The Marvelous One (my all-time favorite) later got him in the ring face to face sans bottle with considerably different results.

As a head injury expert I can tell you that the thickness of the skull would have very little to do with susceptibility to be knocked out. It's what's inside and below the skull that brings this about and it's housing has little if any effect on the outcome. In fact if all bones are thicker and more rigid you could be more susceptible to problems in this area. Better to have a good powerful set of neck muscles along with good eyesight and fast reflexes.

Now head injury itself aside from "passing out" is another matter. The average skull can take a lickin and keep whats inside ticking pretty well but if it is exceptionally thin, then what is inside is more susceptible to injury. Not because what's inside is any less or more at risk from the "concussion" but because the calcium shell itself could break and damage what is inside. Jaws and the area around the eyes tend to be the first damaged in boxing.

Did I say this in a way that makes sense? The Brain itself is going to be juggled around about the same amount regardless of how thick the skull is. But if the skull itself breaks on impact that can be an entirely new set of complications that can add much drama/trauma to the event.

The more the boxer is able to "shock absorb" the impact the better your chances of avoiding passing out as a result of impact. So keeping very strong and limber neck muscles and seeing where the "incoming" is coming from makes for the best chins. The chin and Skull are over rated as having anything to do with this.

Ali.....Maybe the best eyesight/reflexive ability the sport has ever seen.

Never knocked out. There of course have been others.

BoxBuzz wrote:As a head injury expert I can tell you that the thickness of the skull would have very little to do with susceptibility to be knocked out. It's what's inside and below the skull that brings this about and it's housing has little if any effect on the outcome. In fact if all bones are thicker and more rigid you could be more susceptible to problems in this area. Better to have a good powerful set of neck muscles along with good eyesight and fast reflexes.

Now head injury itself aside from "passing out" is another matter. The average skull can take a lickin and keep whats inside ticking pretty well but if it is exceptionally thin, then what is inside is more susceptible to injury. Not because what's inside is any less or more at risk from the "concussion" but because the calcium shell itself could break and damage what is inside. Jaws and the area around the eyes tend to be the first damaged in boxing.

Did I say this in a way that makes sense? The Brain itself is going to be juggled around about the same amount regardless of how thick the skull is. But if the skull itself breaks on impact that can be an entirely new set of complications that can add much drama/trauma to the event.

The more the boxer is able to "shock absorb" the impact the better your chances of avoiding passing out as a result of impact. So keeping very strong and limber neck muscles and seeing where the "incoming" is coming from makes for the best chins. The chin and Skull are over rated as having anything to do with this.

Ali.....Maybe the best eyesight/reflexive ability the sport has ever seen.

Never knocked out. There of course have been others.

Thanks for the insight, BoxBuzz. More than once I've been a bit wary of these types of things being 'revealed' by the (popular) media. Very gimmicky marketing points a lot of the time. For example, I think Paul McKenna probably benefited more than the fighters during the 90's. Getting all that press coverage in The Sun boosted his popularity to no end, while the actual techniques seemed to be hit or miss: compare the successes of Collins and Benn to the failure of Bruno - who was so 'confident' he crossed himself 20 odd times on the way to the ring.

BoxBuzz wrote:As a head injury expert I can tell you that the thickness of the skull would have very little to do with susceptibility to be knocked out. It's what's inside and below the skull that brings this about and it's housing has little if any effect on the outcome. In fact if all bones are thicker and more rigid you could be more susceptible to problems in this area. Better to have a good powerful set of neck muscles along with good eyesight and fast reflexes.

Now head injury itself aside from "passing out" is another matter. The average skull can take a lickin and keep whats inside ticking pretty well but if it is exceptionally thin, then what is inside is more susceptible to injury. Not because what's inside is any less or more at risk from the "concussion" but because the calcium shell itself could break and damage what is inside. Jaws and the area around the eyes tend to be the first damaged in boxing.

Did I say this in a way that makes sense? The Brain itself is going to be juggled around about the same amount regardless of how thick the skull is. But if the skull itself breaks on impact that can be an entirely new set of complications that can add much drama/trauma to the event.

The more the boxer is able to "shock absorb" the impact the better your chances of avoiding passing out as a result of impact. So keeping very strong and limber neck muscles and seeing where the "incoming" is coming from makes for the best chins. The chin and Skull are over rated as having anything to do with this.

Ali.....Maybe the best eyesight/reflexive ability the sport has ever seen.

Never knocked out. There of course have been others.

I must say that I don't agree with this logic. If having a thinner than normal skull leaves you more prone to being koed and hurt (as was the case for Johnny Owen) then it also stands to reason that if you have a thicker than normal skull you will be able to take shots to that area easier than some other people imo.

It would seem so yes upon first blush, Let me try again.

With too thin your point is valid, but beyond that......

Just remember the bone is not the issue its the Jello below. And what is below will not be punctured or sustain a bruise upon point of impact quite like your arm because it is contained inside a shell, Instead the entire mass will bounce around so once you reach critical mass in terms of structure anything thicker or stronger will not provide more protection. It's the entire brain that "goes for a ride" and will sustain what may appear as "random" damage, not just at the point of impact. What's inside cares not how thick the wall is as long as the wall in not breached. But the jello inside will take the same or nearly the same ride no matter the thickness of the outside wall.

So the worst of the damage will not likely be close to point of impact but at some mathmatical "whipping" point. Something like billiard balls. Every hit has a different mathmatical outcome as to where the most damage might be sustained. Thump on a full water balloon to experiment what I am talking about.

Imagine yourself inside a shaking room, and the room shakes violently, you will not likely be effected by the thickness of the walls as long as they don't collapse or have any "give". You will be banged about inside that room pretty much equally whether they are 2 feet thick or 2 inches thick.

The collision between the fist and the skull is but one "crash" the other "crash" is between the brain and the inside walls of your skull.
The floating matter inside is not going be better protected by thicker walls because it is floating and not static. Does this help? Oh and for the record the thicker skull itself may be slightly less effected by the impact than the thinner one but who cares? It is inert.

If the brain was a hunk of lead in danger of being bent on impact you would have a point. But it is a fluid mass that just wobbles and wiggles and shakes inside of a shell.

As long as the skull does not break, then whats behind it is going to experience pretty much the same event.

Good eyesight, fast reflexes, strong and limber neck muscles are a greater variable in terms of defense than differences in skull thickness.
At least as long as it does not hit that minimum "egg shell" factor. A broken skull in a fight is tough break indeed.

I don't think there is enough difference in brain viscosities to be meaningul either, this could be the next logical conversation I suppose.
Not sure anyone has done much research on this.

wigfall and hagler fought in the ring twice. hagler got a decison in one. then stopped wigfall on a cut in the other. both were good fights. wigfall had talent. but went to prison for murder.

All of the things you mention are legit BoxBuzz......But you fail to realize that a thicker cranial bone (skull) will absorb and disperse more energy, because it is thicker and has more mass. It is simple physics. Mass absorbs energy. So if in fact a fighter (Hagler) does have thicker head (so to speak) and has all of the other attributes you mention, he would be tougher to KO. Lets face it, some guys can take a shot, better than others. Many have well developed neck muscles, eyesight, and reflexes, but they fall like trees.

Ringsider right you are. My room theory was a clumsy one to illustrate against your selected arguement. Certainly the thicker wall would protect you better from outside striking forces. Notice I said the room being shook vs the room being struck.

However we will disagree I believe on whether the differences in mass between the slightly less than average vs the thickest skull in history will be enough to bring much difference in the outcome from an accurately thrown heavy power shot from a gloved fist of a fighter. Geometry of a particular skull might make for a greater difference than the mass actually. Anyway my greatest point is that it honestly may not have made a difference in 99.9% of outcomes. And to bring this back to point Marvin Hagler's skull.

The shaking vs the striking is important, there are so many "resonant" factors in this and the skull is just one of many of them.

How much will it take for me to get this through your thick skulls? Not much more than it will take to get it through average skulls actually.

How much will it take for me to get this through your thick skulls? Not much more than it will take to get it through average skulls actually.

says BoxBuzz.

Exactly BoxBuzz....though the difference may be slight, it still requires more force to do as much damage on an object that has a larger mass. It doesn't make a different in 99.9% of the fighters. 99.9% of fighters may not have thicker skulls (more mass) but in those that do,( the .1%) it will require more force to impart the same damage, as would be rendered on a thinner skulled fighter. Hence the man with the more mass in the skull would have to be hit harder to KO him, if all other things are equal. (neck muscles, eye sight, reflexes, etc)

When will this information be absorbed through your thick skull, so you can processes it?

Your minutiary point is granted. Nominal is the key qualifier. Doubt it would ever be or ever has been a factor. Though anything is possible.

Doubt it would ever be or ever has been a factor.

That is the whole point!! It will be a factor if all other things are equal. It would make the difference!! It is simple physics. Whether or not it has been a factor in certain fighters ability to take shots, we do not know for sure, as there are no studies of fighters skull thicknesses.

So your statement BoxBuzz, doubting that skull thickness in itself has been a factor in the ability of a fighter to take punches, is doubtful!! In other words you are blowing hot air!! BS...

Though anything is possible.

Exactly!!! Especially if it adheres to the laws of physics that we can mathematically verify.

Well Hmmphhn eh, uh of course....exactly! I wouldnt' have it any other way. It's physics you know.....delightful stuff if you have a taste for that sort of thing.

Since you are clearly stating that anything IS possible and you have the determination to explore such possiblities, regardless of how remote, Ive not heard a word from you on the potentional of the 3 armed fighter. Have there been any? At least up to now? What was their record? Any downsides? And I know you must have given thought to the thick skulled 3 armed fighter as well.

And so's not to get off topic completely I would now like to put the final word to the original question posed, which has been sadly missed in all this digression.

The original question of this thread and it's undeniable answer is as follows.

Marvin Hagler...True or False? Answer is..... TRUE!


Respect 8)

It is OK to be stupid BoxBuzz, what is sad is that you put it in print for all to read.

Stupid? ahhh! Well now that would explain a few things. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. Thanks to your honest and timely assesment I'll be able to tend to it straightaway. Rather than mucking about continuing in an errant manner.

Your brilliance blinding, your sense of humor sharp, You don't miss a trick and your willingness to point out others weaknessess shows a certain determination to take the lead where others would tend toward shyness.

Elements most often found in used car sales folks and politicians. Ringsider, it has been an honor to have been corrected by you sir! You can be certain I will walk away from this improved by the experience.

It is a good thing BoxBuzz, you have learned something from your mistake. All that can be asked is that you take your new found knowledge and go forth into the world, and use your new knowledge for good, not evil.

The day has been a success.

....it's common knowledge though never officially "proved" that marvin hagler is bald because he has been taking chemotherapy for the past 40 years but is so tough it and the cancer it is treating have had virtually no effect on him, though some blame his lose to leonard on it.

the cancer is from a fungus on his left toe that got out of hand....or foot i suppose would be more accurate.