BoxRec

is it just me out there or do othr people here think that hes completley overrated...he fought good against holyfield, sure, but i still think holyfield won that fight,..he fought a punch of lousy boxers, and the best fighter he fought was mike tyson..sure thats good that he beat him but he was also a decade past his prime.. WHY is everyone sold that this guy is a top 10 fighter, top 7 fighter of all time i think its beyond ridiculous.

Its because he beat all the top heavies of his era (Holyfield, Tyson, Ruddock, Bruno, Tucker, McCall, Morrison, Mercer, Akinwande, Golota, Botha etc), then in his mid to late 30s was able to beat all the top heavies of the new era (Tua, Grant, Klitschko, Rahman) when all the previous heavyweight champs in history were washed up by that time in their lives.

Its because he only lost twice & was able to come back & completely humiliate +beat the hell out of the guys who beat him, its because he was a 3 time heavyweight champ, and the only guys who he didnt beat (Bowe & Moorer) outright ducked him, and on top of all that you only have to watch him to see he had great skills, a wide artillery of punches, and perfect use fo his reach & size advantages.

What exactly does it take to impress you? What more can you ask of someone? Should he have done jail time, acted like a thug, raped women? Or just have been born in the US instead of the UK?

I dont understand your problem.

overhand_right wrote:Its because he beat all the top heavies of his era (Holyfield, Tyson, Ruddock, Bruno, Tucker, McCall, Morrison, Mercer, Akinwande, Golota, Botha etc), then in his mid to late 30s was able to beat all the top heavies of the new era (Tua, Grant, Klitschko, Rahman) when all the previous heavyweight champs in history were washed up by that time in their lives.

Its because he only lost twice & was able to come back & completely humiliate +beat the hell out of the guys who beat him, its because he was a 3 time heavyweight champ, and the only guys who he didnt beat (Bowe & Moorer) outright ducked him, and on top of all that you only have to watch him to see he had great skills, a wide artillery of punches, and perfect use fo his reach & size advantages.

What exactly does it take to impress you? What more can you ask of someone? Should he have done jail time, acted like a thug, raped women? Or just have been born in the US instead of the UK?

I dont understand your problem.

Agreed.

How is Lewis overrated?

He dominated his era, that's all you can ask of a fighter.

Granted, he's never going to be ranked above the likes of Ali, Louis & Johnson etc, but he was a damn fine fighter, who was only ever beaten by himself.

Sorry Rory but I've got to call you on this one. It appears you have a most unusual set of standards for measuring boxers. You go on and on about a fighter who won a little over 53 pct of his bouts (maybe the poorest record in the Hall of Fame) then call a guy who went 16-2-1 with 11 ko's in title bouts overrated. Lewis won every non-title bout he had (unlike Braddock who lost to journeymen) and avenged his only 2 losses in dramatic fashion. If anything Lewis is underrated. Even after he gave McCall a beating in there rematch we had to hear for years that Lewis has a questionable chin.

lewis is better then braddock..that has never been in question my love for braddock goes beyond his record... i understand that lewis beat the competition of the 90's. and im not calling him a bum or a journeyman.. im saying hes not top 10..and maybe it is because of the competition... i would put him around 15...if he fought at a time when more hall of famers were present, and held this record then we would be able to rank him higher IMO but he fought only 2 hall of famers, i thought that the evander fight shoulda been at least a draw or a loss, and tyson was way beyond his prime.. dont take it like im calling lewis a bum.. but im saying top 7 top 10 is too high for him

I think even you over-rate Lennox. I think he would have barely been ranked in the top ten (if that) during my particular favorite heavyweight era (mid-sixties to late seventies) Why?
Ali kills him. Any arguments there?
Foreman kills him. George was 1) bigger, 2) faster, and 3) a harder puncher than McCall or Rahman. And 4) had a better chin.
Lyle, ditto and for the same reasons.
Frazier kills him. See 2, 3, and 4 under Foreman.
Shavers kills him. See 2, 3, and 4 under Foreman.
Norton kills him. See 1,2, and 3 under Foreman.
Jimmy Young boxes rings around him in an unbelieveably boring fight.
Jerry Quarry ditto. Except not as boring. Or possibly turns in a Mac Foster type perfomance and kills him.
Lennox beats Jimmy Ellis by decison. Would probably also beat most of the other contenders of that time Oscar Bonavena, Henry Cooper, Buster Mathis, etc. Lennox Lewis an all-time great? No way.

I'd pick a prime Ali and Foreman to beat Lewis, but as for the rest.

1. Joe Frazier. Too small and easy to hit. LL in 3-4 rounds.
2. Earnie Shavers. I'd give him a very slight punchers chance but more likely it would be LL by stoppage in 6 or 7.
3. Ken Norton. LL would pin him on the ropes and KO him in about 3.
4. Jerry Quarry. He'd try and trade with LL and be stopped in 2.
5. Jimmy Young. Harder to hit than the previous 4, but LL would get to him and finish him off inside of 8.

tagjohnson wrote:I think even you over-rate Lennox. I think he would have barely been ranked in the top ten (if that) during my particular favorite heavyweight era (mid-sixties to late seventies) Why?
Ali kills him. Any arguments there?
Foreman kills him. George was 1) bigger, 2) faster, and 3) a harder puncher than McCall or Rahman. And 4) had a better chin.
Lyle, ditto and for the same reasons.
Frazier kills him. See 2, 3, and 4 under Foreman.
Shavers kills him. See 2, 3, and 4 under Foreman.
Norton kills him. See 1,2, and 3 under Foreman.
Jimmy Young boxes rings around him in an unbelieveably boring fight.
Jerry Quarry ditto. Except not as boring. Or possibly turns in a Mac Foster type perfomance and kills him.
Lennox beats Jimmy Ellis by decison. Would probably also beat most of the other contenders of that time Oscar Bonavena, Henry Cooper, Buster Mathis, etc. Lennox Lewis an all-time great? No way.

Foreman as a champ was 6'3 1/2, 217.5 lbs...Lewis in his prime was 6'5, 245 lbs. I also tend to think that Lennox Lewis' chin is vastly underrated...it wasn't so much his chin as it was his defense that got him KO'd...when McCall and Rahman both KO'd him, he was hit so flush that almost anyone would be out for the count. Remember, those are also the only two times lewis has fallen in his career. Foreman never went up against anyone with the size and talent of Lewis. That said, I think Foreman would win...but he wouldn't "kill" him by any means.

Hell freezes over before Ron Lyle beats Lennox Lewis. Lyle is around the same size as Foreman, except with far fewer skills. Lewis would tear him up. Jerry Quarry completely outboxed Lyle, and Lennox Lewis has better boxing skills than Jerry Quarry...so that's all you need to know about that fight.

A Lennox Lewis/Joe Frazier fight would look like an Ali/Joe Frazier fight. It would be more boring, but Lewis has the ability to keep Frazier away with his stinging jab. Just like Frazier got set up and KO'd with Foreman's jab, I don't see Frazier being able to get around Lewis' jab. I don't think that Lewis would KO Frazier, who, except for the Foreman fights had a pretty solid chin, but he would be able to win by an easy decision.

Earnie Shavers is the most overrated fighter of the era. He would stand zero chance against Lewis. Shavers was KO'd by Ron Stander and KO'd in the 1st round by Quarry. Shavers also lost by decision to a guy with a losing record when he was in his prime. There is no way that Earnie Shavers, a guy with a good punch but nothing else, would beat Lewis.

Ken Norton's chin is worse than Lennox's, no question. He was also smaller, weaker, and had fewer boxing skills. Lennox probably wouldn't KO Norton, but he'd win by an easy decision.

Has anyone been able to outbox Lennox Lewis? No...the reason being he knows the sport better than any heavy of the last 50 years with the exception of Ali and Archie Moore. There is no way a fighter who got outboxed by Ossie Ocasio on two occasions is going to outbox Lennox Lewis. Jimmy Young was also outboxed by Michael Dokes and beaten up by Gerry Cooney...and I doubt you think either of them could beat Lennox.

Jerry Quarry would have a chance at beating Lewis, because he has great boxing skills and a solid punch. I happen to think that Lewis has better boxing skills, and if I had to bet, I'd go with Lewis. Jerry Quarry was very small for a heavy, even for his time period (6'0, 190-200 lbs). He doesn't have overwhelming speed nor was he very quick on his feet. That said, I do believe that Quarry was a very crafty fighter and had a huge chin and if anyone in that time period other than Ali or Foreman could beat Lewis it would be Quarry.

I think that even the 70's Ali would defeat Lewis, but it would be by a fairly close UD...around 144-141 I think. The 60's Ali would box circles around Lewis...he was way too fast...but he had slowed considerably by the 70's. Of course, Ali is also one of the few fighters who had a better mental game than Lewis. I don't think Lewis would fair very well against a boxer that had 1-up on him in the mental game.

In conclusion, I think that Ali, Foreman, and maybe Jerry Quarry could defeat Lennox Lewis, and if Frazier could find a way to get through Lewis' jab, then maybe him too, but no one else of that period would stand a chance in hell against Lewis. In my opinion, Lewis would have been at worst a top 5 fighter in the 1970s.

Wow, what a wide range of opinion. Well I guess I will come down somewhere in the middle regarding Lewis.
Tag- There is no way Lewis could possibly lose to Quarry, and he would probably beat Young. Lyle would only have a remote punchers chance. Shavers would be a dangerous fight but Lewis would probably win.

However, I won't go as far as Seamus in picking Lewis to beat Frazier. Frazier wasn't easy to hit and considering how few punches Lewis threw in many fights it's doubtful he would hurt Frazier. Frazier had a good chin, better than Lewis (though Lewis didn't have a glass jaw as his critics claim). I'm sure that if Frazier landed his left hook flush it would drop Lewis. Frazier would also out work Lewis and win a decision if necssary.

As for Ken Norton, I'm not sure. I would give Lewis the edge, but Norton would have a serious chance.

Lewis has some big pros and cons. He did beat Holyfield, Tyson etc as his supporters claim. In most of his fights he was in control and occasionally looked awesome (Ruddock, 2nd Rahman fight). I do give him credit for the Tyson fight. It wasn't his fault that Tyson didn't have it anymore. Remember he was older than Tyson and was fighting tougher competition than Tyson. He perfomed well in that fight.

However, what prevents Lewis from being in the top 10 is that he had a few too many off nights. Being knocked out by both McCall and Rahman is the obvious. A lot of people seem to forget the fight with Mercer. He really only deserved a draw at best in that fight and was given the decision.
He also should have been 1-1 against a fading Holyfield, not 1-0-1. In the 2nd fight, he just pawed with his jab, something he often did. I always thought he was much better when he would snap his jab.

Some people hate Lewis and rate him too low. Some like him and rate him too high. I rate him as about the #12 heavyweight of all-time.

Rory, I have to agree with you. Any fighter who gets clean KO'd twice by a Rahman and McCall is not in the elite group of champs. He was also very boring as champ. For all his attributes (height, reach, weight etc) he never really fulfilled his potential. He was never really in a war or duel, like an Ali, or Frazier or Louis. When the goin' got tough, he got KO'd. He got by mostly on his size advantages, not his superior skills.......Pound for pound I'd rate him very low

walshb wrote:Rory, I have to agree with you. Any fighter who gets clean KO'd twice by a Rahman and McCall is not in the elite group of champs. He was also very boring as champ. For all his attributes (height, reach, weight etc) he never really fulfilled his potential. He was never really in a war or duel, like an Ali, or Frazier or Louis. When the goin' got tough, he got KO'd. He got by mostly on his size advantages, not his superior skills.......Pound for pound I'd rate him very low

Seems a bit harsh. He might not have been the most charismatic and he was not one for taking risks in the ring but surely what counts are his achievements. I don't think you can really say "when the going got tough he got KO'd" The 2 KOs were revenged. He was never really beaten up by anyone. Both defeats were single punch KOs and he was obviously out of shape for Rahman (totally his own fault). He had his off nights and his big wins.

He didn't cover himself in glory in the Holyfield fights but overall he dominated the division.

i just cant put this guy in the top 15, i think there are much better fighters out there, lewis for a "great champ" probly had the easiest schedule of all....everyone is so quick to knock marciano for who he fought, but when u compare, ill take marcianos schedule as being at least twice as hard.

Marciano was a god, he beat who was there and he has the greatest record in sports history. Lewis doesn't come close........

i rate lennox at # 11 in my all time heavyweight list. i defintely think he was a great heavyweight who was close to top 10, and was the best heavyweight of the nineties who defeated a still tough holyfield TWICE and beat a lot of top contenders. his two losses in his prime hurt him, but he got revenge twice in burtal fashion. lewis had an undderated left hook, goob jab, and strong right hand. he deserves top 15. he was inconcistent and i never knew which lennox would come to fight . the lennox that destroyed rudduck in two rounds was tough to beat.

I find it hard to rate Lennox.

Yes he walked into McCall & Rahman and got punished, but he did avenge them.

Walshb, Marciano was NOT god he did beat all- comers. So also did Lewis.

They fought in different eras and the opposition may not have been at the same standard but the truth is Lennox fought and defeated the best that was out there.

I personally was not a fan of Lennox, but then I've not been a great fan of HW boxing since Tyson's demise.

I honestly can't rate him in my top ten HW ever but he would make my top 15

I do agree walshb on your reply to Rory, when you said he was boring as a champ and he never really reached his potential.

Lennox had the ability to be an all time great but like Tyson we never really saw it IMO

Lewis came into his prime during a down period of HW - In that it was after the Holyfield, Tyson, Bowe years -

For starters anyone who is at least WILLING to be intellectually honest on the subject has to admit that Lewis fought a post-prime Holyfield and a post-prime Tyson (his biggest wins) -

The fact also remains that a post-prime Holyfield beat him in thier second fight (but it was a make-up call for their first fight in which Lennox won but was given a draw) - Again, Manny Stewert here in Detroit has said as much in a number of interviews with the Freepress ...that he felt Holyfield could have been given the decision in the second fight....( That says it all...when Lennox's own trainer admits Holyfield probably won the second fight....that means he did win) -

But irregardless Holyfield was much past his prime when Lennox fought him - He didn't have the legs anymore to cut off the ring or throw multi -combinations or keep constant pressure on -

The Tyson that Lennox beat was simply a shell of himself -

Lennox is a good fighter, his size was his biggest asset and he used it well. He had a good jab and a big right hand -

But a prime Holyfield beats him (TKO late) and a prime Tyson runs him down within 6 rounds -

Fought like a coward? explain with much more detail please!

For what it's worth looking back at his career I feel that an in shape and focused Lennox Lewis work give any Heavyweight Champion in history a very tough nights work.

ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.. i dunno kojoe. i see MANY of them beating him, some very easily.

KOJOE90 wrote:For what it's worth looking back at his career I feel that an in shape and focused Lennox Lewis work give any Heavyweight Champion in history a very tough nights work.

I agree with you completely - A Focused Lennox would give any HW a tough night (while it lasted) his size and his smarts would always make him a tough fight - (plus the man can hit!!) -

But when looking at this topic from an intellecually honest position the fact is he beat a post-prime Tyson and was lucky to get a win (second fight) with a post-prime Holyfield - (both of these men in their primes would simply be too much for Lennox over 12 rounds....they were both more intenese, better hand speed, willing to trade and would in their primes had the legs to cut off the ring - Holyfield not having the legs to cut off the ring was Lennox's biggest advantage when he fought him post-prime).

in defense of lennox lewis......

its funny how everyone was picking holyfield to win the first fight and how he came off the best preformance of his career over tyson, and then evander gets outboxed by lennox lewis twice and everyone suddenly calls evander a "shot" fighter

Yeah. Holyfield was so far past his prime when Lewis beat him twice that he came back and was able to score wins over John Ruiz & Hasim Rahman, both of whom are still in the top 5 heavyweights today in 2005.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:in defense of lennox lewis......

its funny how everyone was picking holyfield to win the first fight and how he came off the best preformance of his career over tyson, and then evander gets outboxed by lennox lewis twice and everyone suddenly calls evander a "shot" fighter

have you ever seen Evanders early fights... he wasn't hinselfe when he fought Tyson even. Anyways.. he won atleast one fight.. and was robbed that time... but averall judgeing those two fight id give it to Lennox. Evnader reflexes were done.. and speed was gone.. just watch hes early stuff and you see the forest

Holyfield's impressive stoppage of Mike Tyson occurred in November 1996. Holyfield did not fight Lennox Lewis until March 1999, around 28 months later.