BoxRec

Im not saying he is, its just a question... during the 1920's dempsey reached a sort of icon level that was far greater then that of even babe ruth. dempsey might have been the most recognizable figure on the planet. ever boxer in the 30's and i would venture to guess a decent amount in the 40's all shared a common hero. that was jack dempsey. Could the fact that Dempsey was loved by just about everyone, move him up a little on the rankings, and maybe make him out to be better then he was... he almost lost to firpo..ive seen the fight and he goes out because firpo pushes him, but right before that he landed one helluva shot... but do you guys think its too high to rank him at #5 were i put him.. i mean youve got ali louis rocky johnson dempsey in my mind..

well anyways what are your thoughts on Dempseys placing in boxing history? overrated? underrated? or maybe, which i think is possible, he fought so long ago we kinda forgot how good he was and look past him....

I think demspsey is acctually under rated. He basically took his prime off to be a Movie star and when he got back to business he had lost his edge. his people even knew it, thats why the tunney fight was only ten rounds
I believe Dempsey could have competed it any era with his style and great speed.

that left hook of his sure was something.

Wasnt it? I have six Demsey fights on tape and clips of other fights and man few people if any threw a better one. Theres one point in the launches the 240+ Willard across the ring like a rag doll with the hook. Awesome stuff.

>>>Theres one point in the launches the 240+ Willard across the ring like a rag doll with the hook.<<<

Exactly...and some people try to argue that fighters like Klitshcko would be just too big for a fighter 200 lbs and under...all according to who the fighter is!

well, if you look at the tale of the tape of Dempsey, his measurements like fist, forearms and reach are comparable to modern heavys. It was his runner like lower body that kept his weight lower than 200. if he fought in the mondern area his power would be enough but i beleive he would have to bulk up to at least 215lbs. to take the punches and weight of these modern heavyweights who are alot more polished than the big guys in his era. With Dempsey's wide frame i dont think this would be a problem, just like it wasnt for Holyfield when he bulked up.

He has to be one of the hardest punchers ever at heavy. Who else (besides Baer at heavy knocking Carnera down 11 times in 11 rounds)knocked down guys 7 times in 3 rounds or 7 times in 2 rounds. Best swarmer ever at heavy.

Its sad that people only remember him getting outboxed by Tunney or say he had a weak chin which I feel he didn't have. I think he was pretty difficult to be outboxed (he beat master boxer Tommy Gibbons by decision, that says something.)

And I think #5 is a great spot. I have him at 6, and maybe that is too low.

I read Jack Dempsey's autobiography and in it he talks of the days when he was starting out fighting in mining camps and not making much. Frequently he would have to get a job to feed himself. He said that his FAVORITE job in the mines was 'mucking' For those unfamiliar with the term that means loading one ton ore cars with rock by shovel for 10 to 12 hours a day. I will maintain that the strength and stamina gained in that manner more than compensate for 60 extra pounds of Riddick Bowe

i think most people with an interest in the history of boxing can see further than the tunney fights.speaking of which,i have the long count fight and the willard fight only of jacks.i have seen the firpo fight,but can't remember where.i find watching him dismantle jess with such ferocity that it is awe inspiring.i always get beat down when saying that jacks size would i believe help rather than hinder him against the modern giants.i think he actually prefers the bigger,often slower target.i'd probably rank him between 5 and 10 on an all time list.(probably nearer 5).

dalek wrote:I find watching him dismantle jess with such ferocity that it is awe inspiring.

Me too. I always love seeing that still photo of Jack snarling while clubbing Willard along the ropes.

Sherlock wrote:

dalek wrote:I find watching him dismantle jess with such ferocity that it is awe inspiring.

Me too. I always love seeing that still photo of Jack snarling while clubbing Willard along the ropes.

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http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/Fight:17600

Ric wrote:

Sherlock wrote:

dalek wrote:I find watching him dismantle jess with such ferocity that it is awe inspiring.

Me too. I always love seeing that still photo of Jack snarling while clubbing Willard along the ropes.

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http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/Fight:17600

Not the exact same one I'm thinking of, but still showcases it. And by the way Ric, keep up the great work on adding the pictures. I love seeing the new photos you add everyday.


And I think along with Dalek that Dempsey's not top three but deservedly top ten. I'd say anyone from 4 to 8 all time, but he has to be behind Louis, Johnson and Ali. I don't put him next at 4th, but I wouldn't agrue if someone did. He had the most killer instinct of any heavyweight champion and help popularize boxing even more in the golden age of sports. That he was as or more popular than Babe Ruth says something.

Correction:Just checked the photo I remember and it must have been taken a second after that shot was taken, as it was the same location, but with Willard's head more turned and Demspey's snarl more visible.

Jack dempsey is defintely not overated. i rate dempsey 5 or 6 all time. one thing about him is he may not hit as hard as marciano but he was a better puncher and just as effective because his handspeed enabled him to throw more punches and land more. and even though i rate marciano the harder hitter, i rate dempsey the greater puncher. dempsey didnt knock u out with one punch like marciano did, but dempsey's hand speed made his punches so deadly and he hit willard about 250 times in the worst beating in history of boxing. plus dempsey had a devastating left hook.

so much can be said about dempsey. his hand speed, power, stamina, heart, boxing skills, and the greatest aggression i have ever seen. he was one of the most complete heavyweights, not only did he have power but he had amazing speed and he could box.

like all great champions he did have flaws. i question his chin and defense sometimes, as firpo nearly knocked him out, and if wasnt for the ringside reporters helping him up , dempsey would have been counted out. dempsey left him self wide open sometimesand thats why he got caught by firpo twice.
and in a slug out match, firpo should be no match for dempsey, yet he was able to knock him down twice and nearly KO him.


dempsey weighed only 185-195 yet i have no doubt just like louis and marciano, he would destroy the big modern heavyweights of today. dempsey was at his best against the big guys

tiredoldngrey wrote:I read Jack Dempsey's autobiography and in it he talks of the days when he was starting out fighting in mining camps and not making much. Frequently he would have to get a job to feed himself. He said that his FAVORITE job in the mines was 'mucking' For those unfamiliar with the term that means loading one ton ore cars with rock by shovel for 10 to 12 hours a day. I will maintain that the strength and stamina gained in that manner more than compensate for 60 extra pounds of Riddick Bowe

whats the name of his autobiography... assuming its not just "Jack Dempsey" and any idea if its popular enough to be found at the local book store?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote: Like all great champions he did have flaws. i question his chin and defense sometimes, as firpo nearly knocked him out, and if wasnt for the ringside reporters helping him up , dempsey would have been counted out. Ddempsey left him self wide open sometimesand thats why he got caught by firpo twice.

And in a slug out match, firpo should be no match for dempsey, yet he was able to knock him down twice and nearly KO him.

I tried to get a response last time about why you question Dempsey's chin but never got a suitable response so I'll question again. Besides the fight with Firpo (who is no featherfisted fighter) and the early knockout loss to the far more experienced contender Jim Flynn, when has Dempsey shown a weak chin. His swarming style got him caught many times clean but besides those fights when was he ever seriously hurt in his prime, besides very late in his career when he slugged with Sharkey and Tunney dropped him and a very early fight in 1915 when he went down 9 times. With his style he was often off balance and I find it remarkable he wasn't decked far more often, as he fought punchers Bill Brennan, Fred Fulton, and Billy Miske. His being off balance in my opinion resulted in a few of his knockdowns, where momentum will make you hit the canvas.

Though I disagree about punching power, I think Dempsey was the harder puncher, I'm not going to debate this now. Though great that you added Dempsey's excellent hand speed. I remember some article said he had the power and build of a heavyweight with the speed of a welterweight.

well i agree he has a lot of punching power. but the fact is he didnt ko guys with one punch but more combos and a flurry of punches.

guys like marciano needed one shot and boom the fights over. dempsey boom boom boom boom booom and the fights over.

in a list of greatest punchers, i rate dempsey higher than rocky,

but in hardest hitters list, rocky hits harder with one punch than dempsey.

kearns even said marciano hit harder than dempsey.

but the point is his handspeed enabled to be just as effective as marciano who hit harder with one punch, cause he often got off a lot more punches which would be more of an impact than marciano landing one big one at times.


fact is, dempsey nearly got knocked out when he tried to slug it out with a guy who had a good right hand and nothing else. and dempsey seemed to be suceptible to right hands, most of his knockdowns and times he got hurt were by right hands . carpentier stunned him with a right hand.

- andre anderson knocked dempsey down, flynn knocked him out (though very sketchky), wille meehan hurt him a couple times, bill miske hurt him with a right in the 3rd round of there draw, sharkey hurt him badly and came close to knocking dempsey out in the 1st round. tunney floored him with one right hand and tunney wasnt a huge puncher, fipro knocked him down twice and nearly kayoed him.

sometimes i wonder, if he had trouble slugging it out with a guy like firpo, how would he do against other hard punchers who could fight better than firpo

but these fights also proved how much heart dempsey had. he had a lot of heart.

its hard to rate dempsey sometimes, cause he did fight a lot of good heavyweights but he never faced a top 30 or 40 heavyweight IN HIS PEAK.
and the dempsey critics bring up his fight with firpo saying he nearly lost trying to slug it out with a fighter like firpo, what would happen if he tried to slug it out with a better fighter.

Dempsey's right hand was the punch that kept putting Willard and Firpo down, it was one punch that put Tunney down for 14 seconds, it was one punch that knocked Sharkey out cold. The most first round knockouts in heavyweight history say he could punch. He continually punched and landed combos, but it was mostly one punch that put his opponents down.

Most of Dempsey's knockdowns were from shots to the upper or top of the head. Are we rating his whole head or the ability to take a punch to the chin? And Firpo wasn't that bad, but even still when a guy that can punch hard hits you clean, no matter who you are or how good your chin is, your going down. Nearly every heavy would have fallen from that punch.

And in the Firpo fight, you have to factor not only that he has to get up from a hard punch, he has to get up from a table awkwardly and climb into a ring with gloves on. He did pretty damn good in my opinion for taking a hard punch and hitting a table hard.

And I totally disagree with you that Tunney was not a great puncher.

And Kearns never took a shot from either man, so how can he judge?

tunney was not known as a hard hitter in the hevayweight division. thats all i am saying.

and i give dempsey all the credit in the world for getting himself back into the ring(though he had some help) and knocking out firpo. it took a lot of heart. when dempsey got hit like that then pushed out of the ring, to win the fight at that moment it wasnt skill anymore. it was all mental and heart. and dempsey proved that he had the heart of a great champion right there.


and i never said dempsey coudlnt punch. hes one of the greatest punchers of all time. i simply said he cant HIT AS HARD as some of the other champions, and he barely ended fights with ONE punch. dempseys handspeed is what made him such a great puncher.


also, i wonder how some of his fights would have been different if he DIDNT HAVE THE U CANT STAND OVER A FALLEN OPPONENT RULE.

Rory McCloskey wrote:

tiredoldngrey wrote:I read Jack Dempsey's autobiography and in it he talks of the days when he was starting out fighting in mining camps and not making much. Frequently he would have to get a job to feed himself. He said that his FAVORITE job in the mines was 'mucking' For those unfamiliar with the term that means loading one ton ore cars with rock by shovel for 10 to 12 hours a day. I will maintain that the strength and stamina gained in that manner more than compensate for 60 extra pounds of Riddick Bowe

whats the name of his autobiography... assuming its not just "Jack Dempsey" and any idea if its popular enough to be found at the local book store?

It's called Dempsey and there was also a more recent book on him,I believe by noted sports author Roger Kahn,called A Flame of Pure Fire.Try Amazon.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:... guys like marciano needed one shot and boom the fights over. dempsey boom boom boom boom booom and the fights over.

Sharkey was out from one punch, as were many others.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:... kearns even said marciano hit harder than dempsey.

I didn't know that Kearns got punched by both of them?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:...sometimes i wonder, if he had trouble slugging it out with a guy like firpo, how would he do against other hard punchers who could fight better than firpo

An odd comment. I could say that if Marciano got dropped by Walcott, and Moore -- an old LH -- then how could he have stood up to someone who really punched hard, like Firpo or Ron Lyle? I don't think that Marciano ever really faced a monster puncher, except for Louis, who was WAY past his prime. I don't mean this as a negative comment about Marciano, more as a way of questioning your logic about Dempsey.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:well i agree he has a lot of punching power. but the fact is he didnt ko guys with one punch but more combos and a flurry of punches.

guys like marciano needed one shot and boom the fights over. dempsey boom boom boom boom booom and the fights over.

in a list of greatest punchers, i rate dempsey higher than rocky,

but in hardest hitters list, rocky hits harder with one punch than dempsey.

kearns even said marciano hit harder than dempsey.

but the point is his handspeed enabled to be just as effective as marciano who hit harder with one punch, cause he often got off a lot more punches which would be more of an impact than marciano landing one big one at times.


fact is, dempsey nearly got knocked out when he tried to slug it out with a guy who had a good right hand and nothing else. and dempsey seemed to be suceptible to right hands, most of his knockdowns and times he got hurt were by right hands . carpentier stunned him with a right hand.

- andre anderson knocked dempsey down, flynn knocked him out (though very sketchky), wille meehan hurt him a couple times, bill miske hurt him with a right in the 3rd round of there draw, sharkey hurt him badly and came close to knocking dempsey out in the 1st round. tunney floored him with one right hand and tunney wasnt a huge puncher, fipro knocked him down twice and nearly kayoed him.

sometimes i wonder, if he had trouble slugging it out with a guy like firpo, how would he do against other hard punchers who could fight better than firpo

but these fights also proved how much heart dempsey had. he had a lot of heart.

Marciano wore people down more then Dempsey. Look at the Moore, Walcott, Layne, LaStarza . . .Rocky wore guys down. He hit all of those flush in the head and body and it took several rounds. Dempsey would often work JUST the body for several rounds before taking it upstairs. When Dempsey hit you on the chin, you were in major trouble.

Look at Dempsey's # of 1st round KOs, many against top fighters and tough guys.

Dempsey was the harder hitter.

actually later in marcianos career he came more polished, this was after lastarza fight. he lossed some of his one punch power then. marciano for a while in his career was a slugger, then became more a a swarmer, grind u down type guy.

marciano knocked out layne with one right hand, u saw it. amazing, it was a delayed reaction then suddenly layne collaped out cold. one right hand "sheered laynes front teeth off at the nubs".

marciano knocked out walcott one right hand out cold.

rematch, one right hand, walcott was out cold.

marciano sent carmine vingo into a coma with one left hook.

marciano early on in his career knocked out everyone with one punch. marciano didnt have much training then and heavily relied on his overhand right hand.

marciano knocked out louis with a right hand, thought louis was already out on his feet. marciano knocked down la starza twice with right hands, first time lastarza saved by the bell.


i could go on and on, but fact is


marciano hit harder, his right hand was the hardest punch of the two and ended most of his fights with one punch.
but, fact is dempsey was the greater puncher. just cause marciano hit harder doesnt mean he was a better puncher than dempsey.


ernie shavers hit harder than lets say george foreman, but was he a better puncher ??? no way. u see my point???

lets not make this into a discussion who hit harder dempsey or marciano.

both were one of the hardest hitters in history of heavyweight division. both i feel were top 5 heavyweights of all time.
i hate comparing the two and saying who did what better, because both are my favorite fighters and both had so much power, its tough to pick one fighter over the other.

im just gonna leave at both top 5 hardest hitting punchers in heavyweight history .

Foreman, Shavers,Tyson, Liston, and Lewis all punched harder than both of them.