BoxRec

he did it for one kd in the first but for the final uppercut that ko'd Michael Grant (lennox held Grants head and delivered the uppercut) why wasnt he disqualified.......?

I know what you mean. It was pretty flagrant. Maybe Lennox had been watching fight films of Liston against Patterson.

The way Lewis fought in the bout against Grant was a disgrace which was nothing but foul tactics used by Lewis...actually, it was almost a carbon-copy example of how Frank Bruno fought in his first bout with Tyson...only Tyson still knocked Bruno out!

Here we go again. I can tell you from personal experience if a guy in the ring is coming at you wildly and crudely with his head down & his arms swinging any boxer with half a brain is going to grab his head and ram an uppercut thru the middle.

Its Grants own fault for fighting like a 4 rd novice.

If Lennox had been DQd and lost his title to Michael Grant it would be just about the stupidest fornicating fight in boxing history.

YAWN.

I watch that fight once in awhile, and I'm still surprised that the ref hadn't stepped in to break it up the moment Lewis started pushing Grant's head down. The fact that he did allow that AND allow Lewis to punch Grant while he was in that position showed really poor officiating by the ref that night.

Lennox took Grant to school and flunked him. Though often boring, Lewis was a very intelligent fighter. As he said after the Tua fight; "Why would I fight David Tua's fight when that only benefits David Tua?".
Excellent point, and he had the exact same attitude for Grant, purely professional.

-KOKid-

Then I suppose holding behind the head and punching is alright with you "kokid"? Or Sam Peter hitting Klitschko in the back of the head repeatedly, I suppose that's taking him to school as well?
I had no doubt that Lewis would beat Grant. I just didn't think he'd do it in such a cheap fashion.

C'mon guys. Ali used to rub the laces of his gloves in his opponents eyes, Holmes was the master of the thumb, Holyfield used his head, Leonard used to punch after the bell regularly, etc.. Basically, most of the best fighters have also been quite gifted at stretching the rules. Lewis is just in with a very good crowd.

Have to agree with John L. It is cheating but only if the ref sees it and says so. Some fighters get/got away with a lot lot more...

The Great John L wrote:C'mon guys. Ali used to rub the laces of his gloves in his opponents eyes, Holmes was the master of the thumb, Holyfield used his head, Leonard used to punch after the bell regularly, etc.. Basically, most of the best fighters have also been quite gifted at stretching the rules. Lewis is just in with a very good crowd.

Agreed. Virtually every great fighter mastered the art of stretching the rules. George Foreman used to say "Do whatever you can if you can get away with it."
Robinson, LaMotta, Zivic, Greb, Dempsey, Trinidad, Hagler... an endless list if you think about it. They were all great and all great at strecthing the rules. This is boxing after all.

-KOKid-

Yeh but too many yanks hate Lennox for doing it because he is British.

Overall considering the long line that preceded him, LL has to be one of the cleanest most gentlemanly heavyweight champs ever.

overhand_right wrote:Yeh but too many yanks hate Lennox for doing it because he is British.

Overall considering the long line that preceded him, LL has to be one of the cleanest most gentlemanly heavyweight champs ever.

This is true. I was just responding to the poster who was proclaiming that what Lewis did to Grant was "legal". It wasn't. As I said, as soon as Lewis started pushing Grant's head down like that, he should separated them.
As for the list of the others who use rough-house tactics, I didn't see the one many consider to be the most proficient at it - Bernard Hopkins.

There was a pic in an 80's KO mag of George Foreman delivering a right hand to the unfortunate Jack Halloran, where George's left glove is wrapped around the back of Jack's head, as if he's cradling it Funny pic, as George seemed to be gazing into the distance and wasn't even looking at his opponent. Talk about nonchalant

-KOKid- wrote:

The Great John L wrote:C'mon guys. Ali used to rub the laces of his gloves in his opponents eyes, Holmes was the master of the thumb, Holyfield used his head, Leonard used to punch after the bell regularly, etc.. Basically, most of the best fighters have also been quite gifted at stretching the rules. Lewis is just in with a very good crowd.

Agreed. Virtually every great fighter mastered the art of stretching the rules. George Foreman used to say "Do whatever you can if you can get away with it."
Robinson, LaMotta, Zivic, Greb, Dempsey, Trinidad, Hagler... an endless list if you think about it. They were all great and all great at strecthing the rules. This is boxing after all.

-KOKid-

Ali didn't rub the laces of his gloves in his opponents eyes. Leonard didn't punch after the bell regularly. Both were hotdogs, but they weren't dirty fighters.

Many great fighters were clean fighters who didn't resort to these kind of tactics.

As for the original thread, if Lewis did do that Grant, the referee shouldn't have let him get away with it. It's irrelevant how how good his opponent was.

Ambling Alp wrote:Ali didn't rub the laces of his gloves in his opponents eyes. Leonard didn't punch after the bell regularly.

I strongly suggest that you watch SRL's fights. I have seen most of them, and he was notorious for launching punches after the bell. Certainly not every round, or every fight even, but it was quite frequent. And Ali did use his laces in several fights during the 70's. Just watch him against Wepner. And it sure did look intentional.

BTW, I did not call either a dirty fighter. After all, this is boxing and not ballroom dancing. You'd be hard pressed to find any top caliber fighter that didn't bend the rules to their own advantage.

Ambling Alp wrote:

-KOKid- wrote:

The Great John L wrote:C'mon guys. Ali used to rub the laces of his gloves in his opponents eyes, Holmes was the master of the thumb, Holyfield used his head, Leonard used to punch after the bell regularly, etc.. Basically, most of the best fighters have also been quite gifted at stretching the rules. Lewis is just in with a very good crowd.

Agreed. Virtually every great fighter mastered the art of stretching the rules. George Foreman used to say "Do whatever you can if you can get away with it."
Robinson, LaMotta, Zivic, Greb, Dempsey, Trinidad, Hagler... an endless list if you think about it. They were all great and all great at strecthing the rules. This is boxing after all.

-KOKid-

Ali didn't rub the laces of his gloves in his opponents eyes. Leonard didn't punch after the bell regularly. Both were hotdogs, but they weren't dirty fighters.

Many great fighters were clean fighters who didn't resort to these kind of tactics.

As for the original thread, if Lewis did do that Grant, the referee shouldn't have let him get away with it. It's irrelevant how how good his opponent was.

Alp, SRL was a dirty fighter. He used so many tricks but that smile always allowed him to get away with it. I'm not criticising him for it. He was a very competitive man and wanted to win no matter what it took.

Ali should have been deducted at least a point in manilla. Again, if the ref won't uphold the rules then you can't blame the fighters.

Was it flagrantly illegal-yes, and Lewis should have had a point taken away.

Would it have made a difference? no . . .as one poster already said, Grant look like such an uncoordinated amateur in there it wasn't even funny. I remember thinking after I first saw the fight that HW boxing has reached an all time low (of course that was before the ascension of John Ruiz ). It's really a sloppy sloppy fight. Grant shows a big heart and little else . . .

The Great John L - All I can say is that I have seen most of Ali's fights and never saw him rub the laces of his gloves against anyone.
I have never heard of an opponent claiming that he did. I have never heard an announcer mention this. I have read many books on boxing (including several on Ali) and have never heard this mentioned.
Haven't even heard from his worst detractors that he did this.
I have seen the Wepner fight and never saw this happen. Nevertheless I will watch it again.

Dempsey fire- As for Sugar Ray Leonard being a dirty fighter, I just don't agree with this at all. I have seen many of his fight as well, and didn't see him using dirty tactics. He was a very clean fighter, and have never heard anyone (including opponets that hated him like Hearns and Hagler) saying he was dirty.

jimbob wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:The Great John L - All I can say is that I have seen most of Ali's fights and never saw him rub the laces of his gloves against anyone.
I have never heard of an opponent claiming that he did. I have never heard an announcer mention this. I have read many books on boxing (including several on Ali) and have never heard this mentioned.

Ali would mess up his opponents faces with his laces all the time, but he never rubbed them in people faces. It was the way he threw his punches, when he caught people with glancing blows he'd catch them with the laces or the seams which would cause grazes. Nothing illegal about that.

But yeah.... I think Lennox should have been disqualified. Sure, get away with what you can get away with...but there's no way the ref should have let him get away with that. I'd have the fight made a NC and made sure the ref never officiated again.

No doubt. Grant's fortunate he didn't get his neck broken because of that.

Ambling Alp wrote:The Great John L - All I can say is that I have seen most of Ali's fights and never saw him rub the laces of his gloves against anyone.
I have never heard of an opponent claiming that he did. I have never heard an announcer mention this. I have read many books on boxing (including several on Ali) and have never heard this mentioned.
Haven't even heard from his worst detractors that he did this.
I have seen the Wepner fight and never saw this happen. Nevertheless I will watch it again.

Dempsey fire- As for Sugar Ray Leonard being a dirty fighter, I just don't agree with this at all. I have seen many of his fight as well, and didn't see him using dirty tactics. He was a very clean fighter, and have never heard anyone (including opponets that hated him like Hearns and Hagler) saying he was dirty.

Alp

I've read an interview in which Hagler describes Ray as a dirty fighter (though this is his opinion). I'll try and dig it out.